FS7: Long Lens Image Stabilization

as well as the sticks.. is the lens camera and plate setup good.

I assume the lens is supported - the camera too?

When Ive rigged my 400.2.8 on my miller 25 the lens was on the sticks on an extended 2X1in 'plate', the camera off the back of the lens but also attached by grip bits to the plate.

My 50-300 the camera lives on sticks but the lens is traditionally supported.

Hanging even an DSLR of the back of the lens usually yeilds vibration.. that would be taken out by a pl mount that provides an adult interface between lens and chip
 
Joshua Milligan said:
Thanks for the replies. I guess I thought I had spent a decent amount on a tripod when I dropped $2,600 on a Sachtler FSB-8 plus sticks. In my area where everyone uses a $200 Manfrotto, I thought I was doing really well. Plus, my camera weighs in total around 16-17 pounds, so with a 20 pound capacity, I thought I was covered.

I can't afford to purchase another tripod until the new year, but until then I guess I'll plan on picking one out. I love Sachtler and would like to stay with them. I also really like the style of legs you can get with their new flowtech design, so that's a plus. I am looking at B&H at the Flowtech 100 tripod with the Video 15 SB Fluid Head (link below). Will that work well for me?

Also, there's one thing I still don't understand. When running a 100-400 with my A7SII or A7RIII on my FSB-8 setup, my footage is still shaky no matter how gentle I am and I can't imagine the FSB-8 isn't capable of handling that, so why am I seeing so much shakiness?

Link: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431238-REG/sachtler_1505ftms_system_video_15_fluid.html
Click to expand...

You may already know this, but some don't, so it's worth mentioning. The stated payload/weight capacity is based on a certain center of gravity height(center of gravity above the head). So, while someone may have a camera set-up that weighs less than the stated payload capacity of the head, it's center of gravity may be higher than what the payload/CoG is stated for for the given for the head, so in effect, you're exceeding the payload capacity of the head. Most higher-end brands, like Sachtler, Vinten and O'conner will plainly state at what CoG the payload is based on and even provide graphs and "alternate max payloads" based on different CoG's.
 
As someone who films wildlife from time to time I'll chime in as well.

My F55 fully loaded with Canon 30-300, matte box, follow focus, R7, battery etc. tips the scales at about 34lbs. I have the O'Connor 1030ds which is barely adequate. I'm in the same boat as Doug. I almost need the 2560. The Canadian dollar is so bad right now, I can't pull the trigger on the $17k price tag just for the head. But enough of my own problems. A couple of things that might help you out. Make sure your tripod is up to the job. Most 2 and 3 stage legs are 2-1 or 2-2-1 configuration. Mine are 2-2-2 which really reduces the mount of wind up you'll get in the legs as you pan. My legs are carbon fiber but I can't help but think aluminum legs might be the better option. I quite often shoot in -30c weather during the winter months and CF legs are a Godsend. Aluminum would be murder on the hands at that temp. As for focusing, I always use a follow focus with a speed crank to reduce the amount of contact I have with the lens. Just finger tips on the speed crank gets the job done. The last thing is practice. Shooting on long lenses is like playing an instrument. It's all about finesse and just takes a lot of practice. One thing to note about the higher end heads and that's counter balance. You can't be fighting gravity and expect to have stable shots. The O'Connor heads have the best counter balance in the industry IMO. Once you have it dialed in operating is almost effortless. You can execute your pan/tilt and then let go of the pan handle. Not contact with the tripod = no shake in most cases. The camera just stays put where you leave it.

Doug have you looked at the large euro plate for you O'Connor? It's the most secure mount I've ever used. I'm just not sure if the euro plate will work with the F55 ENG kit.
 
+1 to all of that. I was about to say the same things, so thanks for saving me the time.

No, I haven't tried the large O'connor euro plate. But I have gone ahead and taken Run&Gun's suggestion to try the Arri VCT plate. I just ordered it from B&H and it will be here next wednesday so I'll report what I find. $820 ain't cheap, but if it solves my stability issues then it will be money well spent. I was shooting a SpaceX launch today with my F55/ENG kit/R7/Canon 200-400 f/4 and a PXW-Z90 on top. About 35 pounds and there's too much play in the VCT and I'm tired of it. It must be getting worse because I notice much more in the last few months. Got some great shots though!! The clouds broke up about 15 minutes before launch and it was beautiful.

One thing way I get steadier shots with wildlife, sports, and rocket launches is to stop and think about what I need to do when the action actually starts. I'm not a hunter but I'm familiar with the term "buck fever". Look it up. Buck fever will kill you with long-lens action shooting. You gotta be prepared to make very smooth movements without getting excited, and that takes deliberate concentration. I am like a hunter tracking the game and squeezing the trigger ever so slightly. At least that's how it is for me.

Another tip is to have the pan and tilt drag friction almost as firm as it will go. I was teaching a class this summer and a couple of the student's (experienced professionals) footage was really shaky so I took at look at their gear and they had the friction so loose I compared it to trying to walk on ice. They thought it was better to be loose and nimble. Totally wrong. Once they got the drag tightened up their footage improved 500%. Joshua, might that be part of your problem?
 
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I'm not a nature shooter - but often need to shoot long lens when doing multicam coverage for Broadway plays. Usually will use the Fujinon 85-300, and we've found that the minimum Sachtler we need for good results is the Video 20. Video 18 is ok for an operated wide shot from the back of theatre with a shorter lens, but once we have the 300 the Sachtler 18 is too light. And as Doug says, we go with a high drag setting on the tripod.
I also avoid the VCT - it's just like adding an extra lens adapter - hard to control the wobble. I go for a rod adapter that screws into the bottom of the camera, and put the sachtler plate directly on that.
 
Doug, let us know how you like the Arri plate and if it makes a noticeable difference for the better. I'm hitting one of my reps up to see if they have a Chrosziel VCT that I can demo.
 
Will do. I should have it late next week.
I hope it solve my problem. If you look at the rocket launch I shot yesterday with the F55 you'll see a annoying side-to-side vibration that get every time I shoot a launch and I can't track down. It's probably there in other shooting too, but it's just not as noticeable.I know there is too much play in the VCT mount so maybe the Arri will fix it.

@ OnSet
I'm afraid I'm stuck with the VCT mount because I have the ENG kit on my F55 and I definitely don't want to give that up.

 
I like the sound. Reminds me of footage/sound V1 buzz-bomb.

Definetely not a subject to film at close range with an 18mm lens.
 
Run&Gun said:
Doug, let us know how you like the Arri plate and if it makes a noticeable difference for the better. I'm hitting one of my reps up to see if they have a Chrosziel VCT that I can demo.
Click to expand...

Well, the Arri plate arrived today and I don't think it is any better than my Sony plate that is 10 years oid. So the Arri plate is going back before I scratch it up too much and can't send it back. What I've decided to do for now is strip the F55 of the ENG dock (which requires use of a VCT adapter) and just go straight from the camera body to my O'Connor quick release plate. The more I examine the whole setup the more I think the weak link in my stability might be the ENG dock itself. For normal shooting with normal lenses it is just fine. And even when shooting wildlife with a long lens is it okay too. But I think when I combine a really heavy 560mm lens and try to do precision tracking of a very steady-moving rocket it doesn't take much play in the assembly to introduce some very slight side-to-side shimmy that would otherwise go totally unnoticed. I've got another launch coming up on Dec. 4 so I'm going to try it with the camera stripped down. I'll tell you, I'm halfway tempted to chuck all the F55 stuff and get a Z450. In many ways the Z450 + FS7 would meet my needs so much better. If only the Z450 could do 4K @ 120 fps I think I really would make the big change.
 
That's disappointing, Doug. At least B&H has a very generous return policy.

I'm still waiting to hear if my rep can get me a demo on the Chrosziel version. I wonder how much of it is psychological with some people, because the Chrosziel and Arri plates cost so much more in comparison to the Sony plates, because they told me they have a client that has bought three of them. I feel more movement(if I TRY to rock the camera on purpose) in the tripod wedge plate than I do the Sony VCT plate(my heads are Vinten Vision 100's). For football I am at the top-end of my 22x and on 2x extender a lot, but at much closer distances, so I'm making larger and faster moves than if something were farther away and making slower and smaller moves.
 
I’m curious about the original question... if the results were good with the same stup and Canon glass, but not with the Sony glass, then surely there’s something the lenses does differently, no? Anyone have suggestions/ideas regarding that?
 
dmitrizigany, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how are you liking that 2018 MacBook Pro? Would you but it again? Are you using a dock to add ports? If so, which one?
 
That is too bad Doug, but not surprised. Quick release it is hard to make it rock solid. And your comment about the Z450 I fully agree with, if it could overcrank it would be a beast and I would own one.

I had been told to check out the Ronford Baker line of gear that they might have a solution. I have not looked.
http://www.ronfordbaker.co.uk/

Happy Thanksgiving to all
 
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My Kessler K-Pod and Hercules 2.0 head is a beast of a tripod, supports up to 500 lbs. I bolt the Sony VCT plate directly to the Hercules head. My F55 rig usually weighs in about 26 lbs depending on lens, so comparatively light to what Doug is using but I honestly was not even aware there were looseness or play issues with the VCT until reading this thread. What I do know is I've used it in gusting cross winds with matte box and had the barn doors blown off but the footage remained rock solid.
 
I have been stymied with image shake with my camera tripod configuration ever since I got the FS7. Even the slightest touch on the tripod handle or lens will result in image jitter. I use the Vinten Series 10 with 2 stage carbon fiber legs which is rated at 30 lbs. I know it is almost thirty years old, but it seems as good as ever. Wth the 18-110 I see shake and forget it with the sigma 150-600 hands must be off camera tripod completely at the long end...not very convenient. I normally use the Sony VCT plate attached to the head. But even eliminating the VCT and just attaching the camera directly to the head still does not make any difference. I have used this tripod/head with a Betacam rig and long lenses and with an Aaton and never had any problem with vibration/shake . For some reason the FS7 seems prone to it. I have tried shims on the plate to camera to make it completely solid but nothing seems to help. I would welcome any suggestions of how fix this problem.
 
I've been pondering Doug's issue with the launch footage. My theory: It's possible there's a wear issue with the head's tilt mechanism that makes it grab ever so slightly under a sustained tilt...and perhaps it's exacerbated by the high amount of drag he prefers to use in that situation. That "micro grabbing" may be just enough to make that camera wobble slightly on the VCT plate...so slightly that you wouldn't notice it under more normal circumstances with shorter lenses and less drag. Two questions then...Has the problem has gotten worse than in previous launches he shot with that same setup? Was there a second camera mounted on the head during the launch that may have unbalanced it to either side?
 
I appreciate your theory, but the problem is definitely not with the 1030D head. It is counterbalanced to within a gram and as smooth as butter. I feel confident in saying that the problem was with the ENG dock and the VCT plate. With those two now removed from the equation, the whole mount is so much more rigid with virtually no play at all. I'm 99% sure my problem is now solved. Unfortunately, I've now lost all the benefit that he ENG dock provides, but I can always put it back on for other types of shoots. I gotta admit the camera is a lot leaner and meaner without the dock.
 
Doug Jensen said:
dmitrizigany, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but how are you liking that 2018 MacBook Pro? Would you but it again? Are you using a dock to add ports? If so, which one?
Click to expand...
Yes, just a bit bummed they now offer a Vega graphics option which seems to improve the computer in most ways...
It’s waaaay better than my 2012 retina MBPa... but haven’t used it THAT much yet, as my Hackintosh is such a beast. But did some editing while on the road. When it comes to editing it seems to chew through things just fine! Have a one of those dongle things that add a few usb3 ports, hdmi and maybe Ethernet. Can’t remember the brand.
 
Some thoughts..

1) The FS7 is a bit flawed in connection to a tripod - two tinky connection points

(the real long lens junkie could mount it upside down as the top plate is well catered for!)

2) Sit LOW.
Basic physics says a tripod at sitting not standing height will be more stable.

I was shooting some wind turbines (which must be shot on a windy day!) and had my miller fully low (18in) behind a board which was a wind break, the legs were sandbagged

4) IS Ive never been convinced that a floating element in a lens is truely locked even when IS is off, consider the big old CanonFD, and nikkors, ideally with a remote focus.

A side note..
I was chatting with an OB guy who rigs darts.. the long shot on the triple 20 is a 900mm or something macro shot. He described having ONE TON of balast for the camera platform and basically some older venues not being solid enough built - flex in the floor and audience footsteps upsetting the rig.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I have a Sachtler FSB-6 w/ Flowtech 75 legs and a FSB-10 w/ Flowtech 100 legs and i wouldn't use either one of them for series wildlife shooting with an FS7. For wildlife I use my Oconnor 1030D with 35L legs and even that combo is just barely heavy and stable enough. I'm seriously considering moving up to the Oconnor 2560. But then weight becomes an issue when working along, whcih is the case 99% of the time.
Click to expand...

As mentioned in a previous post, Ronford-Baker video heads appear to be of very high quality and Ronford has a patent on their camera mounting system. Don't know if they are any heavier than Oconnors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBbUmcBjY-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4VO0cgQhs

www.ronfordbaker.co.uk

Enjoy.
 
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