Location sound? HOW? Complex setup questions? Experts needed..

D

Draccan

Well-known member
Hello,

I have some LOCATION SOUND questions:
(for making feature film with dvx100ae, pal)

1. I have a SENNHAUSER MKH416 mic. Would it be good to place on a pole?

2. Also what would be the perfect setup? If I put the MKH416 on a pole should I still record from the cameras main mic?

3. I was thinking of using the MKH416 on pole. Record on the dvx100 inbuilt mic and then using LAVALIERES for the actors at the same time.
My idea is to have the boompole sound but to use lavalieres to give a cleaner sound. Also the lavalieres function as backup. This would mean I would have more options when editing. I could mix the MKH416/boompole shotgun mic and the lavalieres and if one fails I still have the other recording. What do you think of this setup???

4. If I do nr. 3 - what do you suggest I need to record on. Say I record the sennhauser 416 in the dvx100 + maybe the built in mic. But if I buy a set of four lavalieres - do I need a mixer? Where do I record the lavaliere sound to? I was thinking of using a clapboard to make it easier to sync the lavaliere sound later on..

Pls. Let me know what you think of my ideas and give me as MUCH information as you can incl. links. I want to know if buying the lavalieres are a good idea.

I admit I am completely green in the field of sound recording, so advice is needed.

Best regards,

LLD
 
1. Yes, get yourself someone to take responsibility for sound, AKA soundman.

2. No, camera mic is useless. Get ambient AFTER the take.

3. Skip the built-in mic. Lavs are nice to have on wide shots and as a general back-up but be aware that clothing noise and wireless hits will damage some of the wireless audio. Don't assume that the wireless audio is clean unless you have actually listened to it. Lastly keeping 4 wireless going constantly is a pretty big task. Batteries die, lavs slip, wardrode change, etc; in addition to all the other sound responsibilities keeps even a 2 person sound crew pretty busy.

4. I would recommend the Sound Device 744t (been using for 6 months, absolute perfection IMO). Another (very painful) option is to mix down all the wireless to one channel and record it on the DVX and the shotgun on the other channel. Mixing multiple wireless mics to one channel brings in a whole new set of headaches. Use a slate even if you have sync sound, it will make finding all your scenes and takes in post much easier.

Lastly, this book...

http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs2e/index.html

will give you more info then you can ever gather on the internet. It is a great read and gives you all the basics. Best money any novice will spend on sound. Also exlore Jay's site, lots of good info there.

If you are trying to learn for yourself then get the book and learn thru some trial and error. If you have a project that you are serious about getting good sound, hire a professional sound guy. The price of quality 4 wireless, 4 lavs, and a 4 channel mixer will get you a professional sound guy with professional equipment for at least a 40 day shoot (in Seattle, your mileage may vary).

Good luck
 
good answer, one thing I'd emphasize is do not mix your shotgun mic and lavs together and record in the same channel! If you do then you have the worst of both sounds not the best.
 
Gopher_Greene said:
good answer, one thing I'd emphasize is do not mix your shotgun mic and lavs together and record in the same channel! If you do then you have the worst of both sounds not the best.
Click to expand...

But you can mix and use the two .. or just the best one; after in post? Or? As long as they are recorded separately?
 
wabbit said:
1. Yes, get yourself someone to take responsibility for sound, AKA soundman.

2. No, camera mic is useless. Get ambient AFTER the take.

3. Skip the built-in mic. Lavs are nice to have on wide shots and as a general back-up but be aware that clothing noise and wireless hits will damage some of the wireless audio. Don't assume that the wireless audio is clean unless you have actually listened to it. Lastly keeping 4 wireless going constantly is a pretty big task. Batteries die, lavs slip, wardrode change, etc; in addition to all the other sound responsibilities keeps even a 2 person sound crew pretty busy.

4. I would recommend the Sound Device 744t (been using for 6 months, absolute perfection IMO). Another (very painful) option is to mix down all the wireless to one channel and record it on the DVX and the shotgun on the other channel. Mixing multiple wireless mics to one channel brings in a whole new set of headaches. Use a slate even if you have sync sound, it will make finding all your scenes and takes in post much easier.

Lastly, this book...

http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs2e/index.html

will give you more info then you can ever gather on the internet. It is a great read and gives you all the basics. Best money any novice will spend on sound. Also exlore Jay's site, lots of good info there.

If you are trying to learn for yourself then get the book and learn thru some trial and error. If you have a project that you are serious about getting good sound, hire a professional sound guy. The price of quality 4 wireless, 4 lavs, and a 4 channel mixer will get you a professional sound guy with professional equipment for at least a 40 day shoot (in Seattle, your mileage may vary).

Good luck
Click to expand...

Great reply. I will definitely get these books.

I will not mix everything on the spot down on the dvx .. rather I want several recordings so I can use the best afterwards... So getting the Sound Device 744t might be a good option and I presume it can store the sound separately from the dvx!?
 
MKH416 - winner

MKH416 - winner

Some points from another opinion:

the 416 is a total winner. You really cant go wrong there - just make sure you have a decent suspension and wind system or youll lose out on the best of the mic.

what lavs are you going to buy? The bottom of the pile is totally useless, and the top end are pretty good, but not as good as a 416s quality. Dont spend less than $500 PER SYSTEM, and even then you should probably be looking at upgrading from the included lavs afterwards.

Keep in mind the general rules of best to worst: Boom rifle: Best, Cable Lapel: Second Best, Wireless: Third Best. (These depend on the environment of course)

The SD 744t hard drive recorders cost a WHACK. Its a great tool, but if you arent made of money, its probably cheaper to rent a second DVX and use its channels plus get a second cam! And yes, it records as a totally isolated device.

Last, its perfectly ok to mix the wireless channels together on channel A, and put the boom on channel B, and mix the two together to taste in the edit. Just remember that if theres any chance of wireless mic dropouts, and if the mics are picking up any clothing noise, the odds of it happening increase with each mic you mix to the wireless track. (Ie - more mics, noiser track, harder to clean up)

At the end of the day, just get a pro sound guy. That will free you up a lot to focus on other things, and give the sound the full attention it deserves.

Hope some of this made sense. I guess it does to me.
 
timapter said:
Some points from another opinion:

the 416 is a total winner. You really cant go wrong there - just make sure you have a decent suspension and wind system or youll lose out on the best of the mic.

what lavs are you going to buy? The bottom of the pile is totally useless, and the top end are pretty good, but not as good as a 416s quality. Dont spend less than $500 PER SYSTEM, and even then you should probably be looking at upgrading from the included lavs afterwards.

Keep in mind the general rules of best to worst: Boom rifle: Best, Cable Lapel: Second Best, Wireless: Third Best. (These depend on the environment of course)

The SD 744t hard drive recorders cost a WHACK. Its a great tool, but if you arent made of money, its probably cheaper to rent a second DVX and use its channels plus get a second cam! And yes, it records as a totally isolated device.

Last, its perfectly ok to mix the wireless channels together on channel A, and put the boom on channel B, and mix the two together to taste in the edit. Just remember that if theres any chance of wireless mic dropouts, and if the mics are picking up any clothing noise, the odds of it happening increase with each mic you mix to the wireless track. (Ie - more mics, noiser track, harder to clean up)

At the end of the day, just get a pro sound guy. That will free you up a lot to focus on other things, and give the sound the full attention it deserves.

Hope some of this made sense. I guess it does to me.
Click to expand...
Very interesting reply - thanks.

Considering hiring a sound guy - I am not completely against the idea, but I want to understand the basis for creating good sound, so I know what to ask for. I was thinking of getting a filmschool student almost at the end of his or her education.

At any rate I am happy to hear the 416 is great.

A few questions though:

1. What is a windsystem?
2. I want the top end lavs. Not sure which to go for yet. Trying to read reviews on the net.
I want to have the light and sound equipment (besides the dvx100+ 416 mic that I already have) even if it takes me a year to cover all the costs and get it. As I want to make more films than one I might as well get it.
3. I wouldnt mind a second dvx but was hoping for a cheaper solution.
4. how do you mix the lavs in channel B when there is more than one? What equipment do I need?

I dont mind so much a little static as scenes can be redone.. As long as it is not too frequent. Rather redo a scene once in a while and have two separate sound recordings than having one that is faulty for some reason..

Thanks again!
LLD
 
How did you get a 416 without knowing anything about it? Did you just have an extra grand laying about? And then he's going from not realizing the quality difference of the 416 and on-cam mic to using a $4K 744t?

I want to move next to the fountain of molten gold you live by...

There's some good info here... but this thread has me scratching my head.
 
I bought the dvx100ae+ the sennhauser mkh416, three spare batteries and a bag for like 2700 euros or something ... It had been used for one production. Got it from a guy from Danish Television.
I have no fountain of gold... but I will buy the lights and sound equipment I need for the film in the next 12 months.. I think this guy has put the price a bit low.. Because the PAL dvx100 with tax is pretty expensive in Denmark!

And YES I have NO idea about the sennhauser.. you could tell me it was rubbish and I would have believed you... did check reviews though.. but only after. Maybe I was lucky. The guy have been very helpful in giving me tips about connecting it to the PC when I had some problems. And with Avid and other equipment and settings stuff. He even gave me a 30 minute lesson.
In fact I got a VINTEN tripod, Vision 10 for 320 euros on the side.
 
MattinSTL said:
How did you get a 416 without knowing anything about it? Did you just have an extra grand laying about? And then he's going from not realizing the quality difference of the 416 and on-cam mic to using a $4K 744t?

I want to move next to the fountain of molten gold you live by...

There's some good info here... but this thread has me scratching my head.
Click to expand...

Another thing. Just re-read your post. I only realize now how distrustful it is. Weird.
Anyways I am trying to understand about sound setups in this thread. And I am willing to spend a lot of money in the next year to get started with getting the equipment for my film. I work in a bank and can afford it.
When I bought the dvx100 I had no idea about the mike, but it comes from a good guy with a lot of experience so I went for it. There were other potential buyers so the dude thought he might have set the price low. Anyways it was a package deal and I needed a mike.
I DO know the onboard mike is not so hot. But what I suggested was using that on a different channel. I thought it could be used as ambience sound or whatever that is called.

I have read about lavalieres and that was one of the points I wanted to hear more about.

Even if it costs me another 10000 euros I will continue till I have all I need to go truly independent.

Dont jump to conclusions like that.. it is unpleasant to read and to be acused af being a liar.

L.
 
It's not that I was being distrustful... read around the forums for a while... I'm a pretty helpful guy.

I just didn't understand why people were giving you advice on the very most expensive options available to anyone when you are just getting your first taste of location sound. The 744t which was suggested to you... which you then implied you just go get... is $4,000 USD.

It's all good man... I didn't mean to offend you. It just reminds me of the threads I read where somebody is like, "I'm getting drop-outs on my VHF Azden... what should I do?"... and then they get replies like, "Get a Zaxcom..."... and the person says, "so that will fix it?"... and here I am reading it wondering how this guy is going to make the jump from a $69 wireless set to a $3,500 set.

My curiousity wasn't directed at you but rather at the replies to your inquiry... it just struck me as odd that you were asking questions which, by your own admition, defined you as being "completely green in the field of sound recording" and that people were saying you needed to go buy a $4K field recorder.
 
MattinSTL said:
It's not that I was being distrustful... read around the forums for a while... I'm a pretty helpful guy.

I just didn't understand why people were giving you advice on the very most expensive options available to anyone when you are just getting your first taste of location sound. The 744t which was suggested to you... which you then implied you just go get... is $4,000 USD.

It's all good man... I didn't mean to offend you. It just reminds me of the threads I read where somebody is like, "I'm getting drop-outs on my VHF Azden... what should I do?"... and then they get replies like, "Get a Zaxcom..."... and the person says, "so that will fix it?"... and here I am reading it wondering how this guy is going to make the jump from a $69 wireless set to a $3,500 set.

My curiousity wasn't directed at you but rather at the replies to your inquiry... it just struck me as odd that you were asking questions which, by your own admition, defined you as being "completely green in the field of sound recording" and that people were saying you needed to go buy a $4K field recorder.
Click to expand...
Okay I got you wrong then. My apologies. Guess it is time to go to bed.

Even if I could afford it I probably wouldnt go with the 4000$ option. So I still need to find a better way to record all the sound from the lavalieres. As far as I can see the top end lavalieres are payable. And with the Sennhauser 416 I should be ok.
Trick is the recording system... A second dvx100 is not an option right now.

I did however get some useful info in this thread. :)

All the best,

LLD
 
Nah, it was just jealousy. OK so you have some gear an you want to find out how best to use it.

Go to my site and click on the Archive link in column #2.
Click on Video folder.
Download the mic tutorial mp4.
Put your headphones on while you listen.

Get back to me witth questions.

Ty Ford
 
I think the most beneficial advice for now would be for you to experiment with the 416 on a boom. You'll need a 13' pole for most stuff. It'll be surprising how good the 416 is... you are lucky to be starting your mic adventures at the top of the ladder (I've had a 416 and a ULS at the same time, both are $1K mics, so even though Ty was joking... I'm not jealous.)

Okay so first you should get a handle on what that mic does and how to handle it. For best results you want the mic within 3' of the speaker's mouth(s)... and 2' is better. If you get a boom stand and cradle that will help support the pole and make precise booming easier on more static scenes. If you even play around like this with your friends or family for an hour or two you'll learn a lot. You didn't mention headphones yet so I'd also suggest you get a pair of 7506 phones (Sony)... there are some better phones out there, but not at this price, and they're the standard for location sound. You MUST monitor audio constantly to know what you're getting. Headphones are the first priority.

Since you're planning on going full pro on location sound the next thing you're going to need is a mixer. I'd suggest a Sound Devices 302 or possibly a MixPre. The 302 brings 3 channels down to 2 (hence the name) and the MixPre brings 2 channels down to 1. Either of these units will let you lav at least 2 people simultaneously... and the 302 will let you run the shotgun into the same machine as 2 lavs... and both will allow your sound guy to monitor the audio off-cam or with a feed BACK from the cam so you know exactly what you're getting.

After you get comfortable with all of this you will want to add your field recorder. I'm at this same point myself right now. I'm hoping that the new M-Audio jobbie for $400 turns out to be a sweet little recorder. From what I can tell they're aiming at the Marantz 660, but with a cleaner signal path. From your posts I don't think you'll be even considering this cheaper option (although I am)... so you probably won't want anything cheaper then the Marantz 671... and that STILL isn't anywhere near the level of the 744t... in price or quality... but it's still pretty decent.

For lavs... if you want to go higher... I'd suggest Countryman B6's... these are great sounding lavs that are practically invisible on cam... even if they're out in the open. Running several lavs in a moving situation, without running them wireless... will be a challenge. You might want to only buy ONE hardwired lav before you get several... for that matter you may be surprised at how well ONE lav picks up two or more people in the right situation.

For wireless on a budget, but still of acceptable quality... you can get two Sennheiser G2 systems for a little over $1,100 USD. From my own personal experience... if you want systems that are much better you gotta spend 2 to 3 times that... I bought a Lectro 100 system and it's a little better then the G2, but still not in the league of the 200 series Lectros... which will run $1800 each. That's why I say a couple G2's may tide you over.

I'm sure I'll think of something else, but so far that's where I'm coming from... and I'm just a guy who likes sound. I don't work for any stores and I don't have any products of any kind to sell here. So while my advice may seem overly simple I think you'll find it effective... and I think what others may be getting close to saying, but haven't said yet, is that you should familiarize yourself with what you have and how to use it... and add audio components to your kit and learn how they work and get good using them. It doesn't take too many shoots to realize why sound guys have all the gear they have... but it does take some experience to get good results even if you do just go out and get the best of everything. I just don't think it's good advice to point a relative newcomer to all the top end choices as if it's that simple... If you watch any kind of racing you know simply having the fastest car doesn't mean you'll win any races unless you're also a pretty good driver... and the best drivers can win in much worse cars. I think you should drive the car got a little bit... read the info on Ty's site... check the archives for info... and I think all that will answer a lot of questions you haven't thought of yet.

Sorry for the earlier misunderstanding... I was taking a poke at the 744t advice.
 
Yea I am sorry about the misunderstanding too!

The Sennhauser G2 sounds interesting. I will check those out. Sounds to be on my budget.

I have to read more about these recorders.
M-Audio jobbie for $400, Marantz 660, Marantz 671.. The 744t sounds a bit pricy for me too.

One stupid (!) question though. If you have a recorder and record the sound from the lavalieres in each their channel on the recorder do you really need a mixer? Cant you perform this on the PC or?
 
MAtt. Im thinking about getting the M-audio recorder as well. it has more features than the 660 and offeres 24/96 recording as well. but.. no XLR.. only balanced TRS inputs.. but whatever.. will work just as good. the M-audio pre's are prety decent for their pricepoint in all their other stuff, and im hoping these are no exception. let me know what you think if you pick it up soon.. it would be a month or so before ill get it if i do. ive got some other stuff higher up on the list to do/get right now. :)
 
I'll probably buy the M-Audio MicroTrack 24/96 as soon as it's available. Yeah it would be cool if it had XLR-in, but 1/4" trs with phantom powering is still better then mini-jacks like the cheaper MiniDisc recorders use... so I guess I will have to get adapters.

Draccan... sorry for calling it a "jobbie"... that's my slang for "a goofy little recorder which isn't worthy of calling pro gear, but good enough for me"... I'd never call a 744t "the Sound Devices jobbie"... So anyway, if you consider one it's called the "MicroTrack".

Also I have to explain a little more about myself from our earlier misunderstanding... one of my pet peeves on the forums is that some professionals don't recognize the level from which the original poster is asking questions. The answers I'd give to a guy who says he just landed a series for the Discovery channel isn't the same answer I'd give to somebody who says they're brand new to audio for video. When somebody defines themselves in the opening post I think people need to pay more attention to those qualifiers before giving advice... and it will benefit not only the original poster, but others who come across the thread and are at that same level.

Now back to the M-Audio MicroTrack... yes, if you get something like that you could possibly skip the mixer. One thing is for certain... if you have a recording channel designated to each mic on a shoot you WILL have clean audio that you can do anything you want with... back at the computer.

A mixer serves several valuable purposes including increased clarity and fidelity from improved circuits... on the fly level control... monitoring... and location mixing which can save a lot of time in post. I've been watching the M-Audio pages to see how soon this MicroTrack will be released, because M-Audio makes some great stuff... and I've been saying FOREVER that we're overdue on an affordable digital recorder like this. The only reason we haven't had near-perfect location recording (in a really small package) for years already is 'cause of Sony's concerns about bootlegging. MiniDisc could have been the answer for "the rest of us"... Doesn't it seem odd that Marantz and M-Audio are coming out with smaller and better digital recorders (with easy digital file management) while Sony is mostly irrelevant? Now you know why... Sony isn't interested in helping the average user get pristine digital location audio that they can easily manipulate digitally on their computers. Sony = Movies... and Sony = Music.

So anyway... yeah I hope the M-Audio "jobbie" turns out to be pretty good. I'm sure it'll fall short of the mark when compared to professional solutions, but if I can get seriously clean location audio with it I'll be happy.
 
Questions:

If I record two or three channels on the 744t and want to listen after each cut to the audio, can I play all channels ON THE SAME TIME and listen with the headset to all sounds mixed? Or do I have to listen to them separately?
Also how many hours of recording will I be able to store say with using two channels?
Furthermore can I offload the recording from the 744t to a harddrive to clean up the disc space for further recording? Or how do I go about that?
And now for the stupid question: Does i record in WAV or ??

Thanks for the replies.. I am getting a picture of things slowly.

I did however wonder about the Countryman B6's -- they seem to be around 300-400$ where the Sennheiser G2 seem to be more. According to what you wrote shouldnt it be the other way around? Or is it because it is for the B6 with no receiver or?
 
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