1DC: Line Level Input

cpreston

cpreston

Veteran
I just picked up a 1DC. It already has the line level input built in from the last camera update. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work. I can set the line level and input and monitor sound before recording, but as soon as I start recording the signal is lost. No sound and no sound recorded. Regular manual and auto input and recording work fine. Anybody else have this problem? Actually, more to the point, has anybody else tested the line level on the 1DC and gotten it to work?
 
Can't believe Canon messed up such a minor update, wonder when will the next one come out. Hope it's worth the wait.

Still on FW1.2.0 at the moment.
 
I'm guessing that it required a hardware update to add pad of some sort. But, I just got my camera so it came from the factory this way. What's weird is that it works just fine at line level until start recording and then the signal just drops out. It's like the record button resets the gain on line level to zero.

Canon told me to send in the camera. It would be absurd if this was an issue with the firmware that nobody has ever noticed which is why I am hoping that somebody can confirm that line level works on their camera.
 
cpreston said:
I'm guessing that it required a hardware update to add pad of some sort. But, I just got my camera so it came from the factory this way. What's weird is that it works just fine at line level until start recording and then the signal just drops out. It's like the record button resets the gain on line level to zero.

Canon told me to send in the camera. It would be absurd if this was an issue with the firmware that nobody has ever noticed which is why I am hoping that somebody can confirm that line level works on their camera.
Click to expand...

A lot of 1D C users either decided to wait for the next update or haven't used the line input at all. Are you in Boston? maybe you can give Michael N Sutton a call, he's a canon pro and works with the product development closely.
 
Thanks for the contact suggestion. I'm still trying to find somebody who can tell me whether it is an issue with just my camera or with the firmware itself. I don't feel like sending in my camera to Canon for a couple of weeks just to find out is a design problem. Canon Cinema EOS support told me"We have not been told of a reason it should not work. I have had no precedent for your report." I also asked about any plans for firmware updates and got this: nor have we been told of a pending firmware update

I wouldn't be surprised if nobody has ever tried to use the line level setting. It's a really poor implementation. I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually bypass the preamp since you can still add gain or attenuate the preamp signal. It also requires the gain to be set around 25% of full camera preamp to get the correct gain staging for a line level signal which means that the camera preamp will add some of it's hiss to the signal. A much better implementation would have been to do what Sound Devices did with their Mix Pre D and have the proper gain staging to be at one step above full off on the camera's preamp. And the absolute worst part about the line level input (if it worked) is that the line level gain always resets to zero when the camera is shut off. If you turn off the camera to change cards or lenses or the battery and forget to set the gain to 25% in the menu when you turn the camera on again, you won't record sound.


 
cpreston said:
Thanks for the contact suggestion. I'm still trying to find somebody who can tell me whether it is an issue with just my camera or with the firmware itself. I don't feel like sending in my camera to Canon for a couple of weeks just to find out is a design problem. Canon Cinema EOS support told me"We have not been told of a reason it should not work. I have had no precedent for your report." I also asked about any plans for firmware updates and got this: nor have we been told of a pending firmware update

I wouldn't be surprised if nobody has ever tried to use the line level setting. It's a really poor implementation. I'm pretty sure it doesn't actually bypass the preamp since you can still add gain or attenuate the preamp signal. It also requires the gain to be set around 25% of full camera preamp to get the correct gain staging for a line level signal which means that the camera preamp will add some of it's hiss to the signal. A much better implementation would have been to do what Sound Devices did with their Mix Pre D and have the proper gain staging to be at one step above full off on the camera's preamp. And the absolute worst part about the line level input (if it worked) is that the line level gain always resets to zero when the camera is shut off. If you turn off the camera to change cards or lenses or the battery and forget to set the gain to 25% in the menu when you turn the camera on again, you won't record sound.
Click to expand...

As I've said Michael from Rule Boston camera mainly uses 1D C and I'm sure he has the latest firmware, so you can check with him about the line level input issue, and report your problem to high profile Canon employee, instead of just customer support team.
 
I've now had another 1DC user over on dvinfo report the same problem. I have not yet found anybody that can confirm that it line level recording works.
 
For anybody interested, I've finally tracked down the issue with Canon EOS tech support. We have confirmed that it is a firmware issue. As soon as recording is started, the line level signal cuts out. There is a crutch for the problem. Once recording is started, you can go into the q menu, select sound level, and reset the sound level so that the line level signal will actually be recorded. From my perspective, this makes the line level feature useless in a shooting environment. The line level input should allow the sound mixer to plug into the camera and control all sound levels on his end. It should not require the camera operator to go back through and reset levels every time recording is started. I'm quite annoyed. Plus, the way that the sound level drops out convinces me that it is an oversight in the firmware development, but Canon tech support indicated that there was nothing that could be done and that no new firmware developments were planned to fix it. The worst part is that this extremely poorly implemented line level input is the only firmware update that has been made available for the 1DC and the way it was implemented and my experiences with Canon Tech Support has convinced me that Canon has either put almost no resources on the 1DC or completely abandoned it. I doubt we will even get the features given to the 1DX at the beginning of the year.



cleardot.gif
 
That is *really* discouraging. But, at least I know it would be a waste of time to send the camera in to Canon.
 
This is indeed very frustrating. However I'm not quite sure about your pessimistic assumptions that Canon has abandoned 1D C.

According to my experience, firmware development is usually done by Canon Japan, without any significant involvement of Canon USA. You probably know that all 1D C firmware update is done on-site via secure internet connection to a server located in Japan.

A friend who works at Canon Asia told me there will be new firmwares coming out this year for Cinema EOS line including 1D C, although he could be wrong.

Also Canon has been collecting user feedback and suggestions within regional user groups in China, this could be a positive indication.
 
UPDATE, a 1D C user based in China reported that line input function in FW1.3.4 is working fine for him. He used the line out from a Bluray player and a RCA to 3.5mm adapter cable to connect to 1D C, no problems with sound monitoring and video/audio recording. The sudden loss of signal only occurs when he select options in the menu other than Line Input.
 
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Maybe the people in China have a different firmware? The Canon tech rep actually confirmed the issue I'm having with sound cutting out on line level when recording is started. Of course, if he's getting sound cutting out on any of the other options like "manual" or "auto", then I would much rather have my problem than his. Is that what he means when you say "The sudden loss of signal only occurs when he select options in the menu other than Line Input."?
 
cpreston said:
Maybe the people in China have a different firmware? The Canon tech rep actually confirmed the issue I'm having with sound cutting out on line level when recording is started. Of course, if he's getting sound cutting out on any of the other options like "manual" or "auto", then I would much rather have my problem than his. Is that what he means when you say "The sudden loss of signal only occurs when he select options in the menu other than Line Input."?
Click to expand...

He's on the latest FW1.3.4, all firmware updates for 1D C around the world are supplied solely by Canon Japan.

By the way another 1D C user from Japan has confirmed that line input is working fine for him.

When feeding the camera with a line level signal, if you select "auto" or "manual", the signal will cut out when recording starts. If you select line input, then everything works normally, both monitoring and recording.

To be honest I'm baffled by this situation.
 
Updated Product Advisory for Canon EOS-1D C

Updated Product Advisory for Canon EOS-1D C

From Canon USA website:


UPDATE (5-2-14):
We value the trust our customers have placed in us, we are dedicated to continuously improving product quality and delivering industry-leading service and support. We offer our sincerest apologies to any customer who may be inconvenienced.

The Factory Update Firmware Service to install Firmware Version 1.3.4 has been temporarily suspended. and will be resumed in the near future.

We will be making an announcement on our Web site regarding the resumption of service.

[TABLE="width: 42%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Contact Information for Inquiries[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Canon Customer Support Center[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 11%"]Phone:[/TD]
[TD="width: 53%"]1-855-CINE-EOS (toll free)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 11%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 53%"]1-855-246-3367[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 11%"]TDD:[/TD]
[TD="width: 53%"]1-866-251-3752[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 11%"]Email:[/TD]
[TD="width: 53%"] CinemaEOS@cits.canon.com[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]For additional support options: pro.usa.canon.com/support
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
End of Update (5-2-14)

Click to expand...

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/profe...geKeyCode=prdAdvDetail&docId=0901e02480a6a31b
 
Wow. Still don't know what to think about this whole line level thing, especially after tech support kept trying to ignore it as an actual problem when I contacted them.
 
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