Let try to get Panasonic to implement this in firmware

[mochouinard]

I posted something a while ago, and again into a post in the technical forum, but I hope maybe Panasonic watch this, or people are interested by this and try to push panasonic to do it...

The idea is to have direct output from the camera of the video recorded sent DIRECTLY to a remote computer, without any expensive interface.

Here is how it would work :

The Panasonic HVX200 is a Linux OS camera. It has all the feature a Linux has. The P2 Slot are basicly only PCMCIA slot, that is branded P2 for the media protocol.

Now you install into this Linux firmware the driver for a PCMCIA GigE Network card, Example : http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1127809&CatId=588
That is 40$ only.


With that done, you have computer access to the camera (Alot could be done, web interface, remote interface to control focus, zoom... but these are other options after), but the camera also have access to the computers.

Now DVCPRO HD use 133mbits/sec bandwidth transfer. The GigE can provide over 300mbits without any problem in both way(1000mbits/sec in theory but let keep a nice margin . Now that is more than ennuf. Now the idea if for the linux system to connect to a remote NFS drive. Once this is done, the camera have direct, like a hard disk or a P2 card, access to the contents.

Now just start recording and ENJOY direct recording to the computer, and GIGS and GIGS of available recording media.

So I think this would be the best workflow. It even sound better than having SDI-HD, since it wouldn't require a 1300+mbits/sec writing speed, but only a nice DVCPRO HD 133mbits feed, that is easy to edit.

Ofcourse this would nearly make the Cineporter obsolete, because anyone could just connect a laptop to the GigE and write to the local HD or to a external HD array. But the Cineporter will provide a BETTER on the road platform.

Wouldn't that be nice ? You could even easily tell the camera to write to 2 NFS drives, for live backup.

Now Ethernet 1gigE is something that is VERY STABLE, and will provide the speed as long as you need it. And can provide over 200feet of cable + posibility of using a Fiber repeter, so up to 10 miles from your shooting We personally stream on 650mbits/sec per gigE Internet links we have, and our actually limit was about 890mbits/sec before we started to have problems (FYI, PCMCIA wouldn't handle those speed).

Like I said, it would also allow direct to the camera from a PC. So software could be made to control the camera externally. Record a focus, or zoom movement and repete the same one over and over. The camera could broadcast the video on the network, and you can have any computers on that GigE network see the live footage and deliver to different monitor and recording.

I really hope Panasonic keep working on this Linux Firmware to provide those features, or that some more binary/kernel hacking group is beable to get inside it and develop those feature.

BTW, dont tell me this is not possible, because it is. I have developped embeded devices, and I know once you get Linux in there, and the right interface port, there is no limits.

 

[dregenthal]

Sign me up!!!

 

[penfever]

I don't know...I think that if Pana really wanted to make the HVX compatible with ANY hard drive or computer system, they would have done it the first time around with the DVX. I just don't think this is part of their game plan. For one thing, it isn't going to help them sell P2 cards....

 

[scarfie]

People hack linux based Tivos all the time. Anyone care to offer up their brand new $6k camera to the operating table?

Great idea. Sign me up, too.

 

[mochouinard]

We might have better luck if we get a Firmware image. If we have that, when we can decompile it and look inside.

Also Panasonic HAVE to provide the sources used to compile for the camera. So they have to provide code to compile it so it work with the device.

Anyway, we will see, if no firmware upgrade is offer, then we might have a harder time. Openning it up to read the EEPROM with a reader... I mean it get complicated. Maybe it has a JTAG connector for Console access... who knows !! Im not going to touch my camera just yet... I need to receive it first

 

[scarfie]

You are correct: under the GPL they have to publish the source code somewhere. It would be interesting to have a look at it. Re-flashing the camera with the drivers for the GigE card...that would make a lot of people around here happy...one Cat5 cable to whatever they want to use.

Can't be that simple, though. The camera would need an IP address, server, FTP or something to network it. I'm not confidant enough with linux to even attempt such a thing. I'm sure I'd screw something up and more than likely void the warranty : 0

For the hell of it, I'll see what I can find on the published source code.

BTW - mochouinard, ever hear of the little town Malone, NY about an hour from Montreal...I grew up there...just giving props to the homeland.

 

[ullanta]

The Panasonic HVX200 is a Linux OS camera. It has all the feature a Linux has.

Well, if you've developed embedded devices, you know that "all the features Linux has" is pretty meaningless. The camera certainly does not have a full installation of linux, and the kernel is almost certainly not (or ever likely to be) configured to support extraneous devices and services.

With that done, you have computer access to the camera (Alot could be done, web interface, remote interface to control focus, zoom... but these are other options after), but the camera also have access to the computers.

And you also probably know that adding the infrastructure for webservers and integrating them into the control loops of real-time devices is not trivial, and likely is not supported by whatever optimized kernel they're using

Now DVCPRO HD use 133mbits/sec bandwidth transfer. The GigE can provide over 300mbits without any problem in both way(1000mbits/sec in theory but let keep a nice margin . Now that is more than ennuf.

and I'm sure you know that ethernet does not provide any bandwith guarantees, which would indeed make this very dangerous...

Now the idea if for the linux system to connect to a remote NFS drive. Once this is done, the camera have direct, like a hard disk or a P2 card, access to the contents.

and that NFS certainly doesn't provide bandwidth guarantees, and requires a host computer anyway, and that the HVX can't even record directly to a dumb hard drive on it's own 1394 or USB ports, so certainly doesn't have the infrastructure necessary for doing so to an NFS-mounted drive.

Ofcourse this would nearly make the Cineporter obsolete, because anyone could just connect a laptop to the GigE and write to the local HD or to a external HD array. But the Cineporter will provide a BETTER on the road platform.

and I'm sure that you must realize that if you're already bringing along a laptop and an external drive array, you can just record via the firewire port, like g-d and Panasonic intended?

BTW, dont tell me this is not possible, because it is. I have developped embeded devices, and I know once you get Linux in there, and the right interface port, there is no limits.

So get to it, and let us know how it goes!

 

[ullanta]

Anyway, I've haerd plenty of "rumor-like" mention of the HVX running Linux, but nothing official or with any meaningful detail. Can someone point me to anything beyond rumor? Knowing how things get distorted, "Linux" may mean any of the Unices, or even something like VxWorks, QNX, or OS-9.

 

[maltinghead]

For every party there is a pooper.

 

[ullanta]

Everybody poops?

 

[mochouinard]

Well, if you've developed embedded devices, you know that "all the features Linux has" is pretty meaningless. The camera certainly does not have a full installation of linux, and the kernel is almost certainly not (or ever likely to be) configured to support extraneous devices and services.

Who cares, the idea is we can recompile a kernel and a firmware image with whatever we wish on it. Ive done it with small wireless HD. I got a Phone PBX system running from a USB Wire hard drive. It wasn't ment for that, but it easy to implement be cause we can recompile anything for any hardware.

And you also probably know that adding the infrastructure for webservers and integrating them into the control loops of real-time devices is not trivial, and likely is not supported by whatever optimized kernel they're using

I do not see a probleme like you have. http server doesn't require much, and wouldn't interfere with whatever the camera does. Also, the camera wouldnt need a webserver, but a service that just wait for broadcast call. So you can just have a windows application that send a message to the network interface, a few bytes and the camera capture it and execute it.

and I'm sure you know that ethernet does not provide any bandwith guarantees, which would indeed make this very dangerous...

Doesn't provide any bandwith garantees ??? What are you talking about ? If bandwidth were not garantees, we would have huge problem with our Internet streaming location. All my video are on a remote computer connected in GigE, and editing is fine. Depending of the equippement you are using, you do not get 1000mbits/sec all the time, but you normally atless get 600mbits/sec without problems, so pushing this 133mbits/sec DVCPRO HD video is no problems.

and that NFS certainly doesn't provide bandwidth guarantees, and requires a host computer anyway, and that the HVX can't even record directly to a dumb hard drive on it's own 1394 or USB ports, so certainly doesn't have the infrastructure necessary for doing so to an NFS-mounted drive.

NFS can provide 10gigE bandwidth, it just a question of the system, so yes it garantees... You could even user a Windows Samba share, but that wouldn't be so great, it would work, but I wouldn't do it (I edit via Samba shares drives, but I wouldn't want the camera to rely on Windows file sharing). The problem is also occuring with firewire... sending DVCPRO HD stream to the Firewire port is no problems, but having the camera control the actual writing to the HD isa lot more processor intensive and can create problems and lockup for the camera OS. For the Ethernet Solution, you can either use NFS with UDP, or doing broadcast, so even if remote end freeze or whatever, the camera is not affected. Also they might have a deal with firestore with not supporting this feature... Who knows

and I'm sure that you must realize that if you're already bringing along a laptop and an external drive array, you can just record via the firewire port, like g-d and Panasonic intended?

The idea is the ethernet solution would be alot more flexible. No need to start capturing and stop to access the clip. Computer can be alot farther from the camera than firewire. You could setup a desktop or a rackmount equippement with more redundant and space optimize setup, so anyone can connect to the network and access the live footage. So no it is not the same thing.

Now try to find better arguments Let me help you :
Q - Processor might not be powerfull ennuf to drive a TCP/IP connection
A - You might be right, in this case, we will work with only at the ethernet level, no IP involved.

Q - Maybe the firmware EEPROM memory is full
A - You might be right, there might be a lack of space to implement those features, but normally they are not that cheap on meg eeprom, it give them a way to add more feature latter, all the small 50$ Linux hardware have free space, im sure this 6k$ cam have a few space left

Q - What if there is network packet collisions ? (Maybe your bandwidth not guranteed idea)
A - This normally occur onto a network with HUB, or with half-duplex interface. There wouldn't have problem with a full-duplex switched network.

I could write more, but they are useless until we try... We will try to get specs on the actual hardware inside the camera, and try to work from there.

 

[Anders Holck]

I don't quite understand your motives.....

The HVX will already stream the recorded content over an inexpensive bus: IEEE 1394a.

All you need to do is write an application for the PC that will record the stream into either AVI or MOV, pretty easy compared to hacking the firmware.

Or if you want a GigE connection why not just make a custom PCMCIA GigE card that would bridge the P2 protool to GigE. Would still be easier than hacking the camera, which is next to impossible without any update tools.

No one outside of Panasonic knows if the OS of the camera is indeed a Linux variant or some obscure DOS system (like Canon uses for their EOS cameras)
A realtime OS would make more sense in an embedded device.

 

[mochouinard]

I wouldn't want avi or even even LESS a mov file as my source. Also you do not have the P2 workflow by using the firewire port. And you are still limited to a very close by computers that you hope is fast ennuf to write the contents.

Custom PCMCIA gigE card is an option, but it would be alot more easy to do it with a standards PCMCIA card, the hack itself once we have access to everything could take a few hours and that it. And it wouldn't be as fun.

Their Manual keep mentioning GPL, so there is GPL code, if they used VxWork they would have stayed away from GPL. Also i does bring alot of developpement saving, and very quick developpement options.

My Canon 20D run VxWork, and there is people already hacking it.

 

[Anders Holck]

But you said in your first post "The idea is to have direct output from the camera of the video recorded sent DIRECTLY to a remote computer, without any expensive interface."

Isnt that what the MXF stream over firewire gives you besides the range of GigE?

 

[Anders Holck]

also, I think the EOS 20D runs ROM-DOS from datalght systems on an x86 architecture. But the key here is tht canon has released both firmware upload tools and the core .FIR files.

 

[limo991]

If Panasonic were a non profit organisation they would probably get rid of tape drive and include a slot there for usb/firewire 2.5inch hard disk catridges. They would provide ten of those in the box and let you choose the disks. They would appear as P2 to the user. That would cost Panasonic about $50 for materials and a few days of coding for a couple of programmers. But they want to make a good profit out of P2 and so they make sure ANY hard disk solution will be inferior (larger, expensive, storage space limited, requiring battery etc).

 

[mochouinard]

People will use the cineporter or the firestore anyway. Also the IDEA is to have something portable, even if I had the Ethernet option, I would still buy P2 card and the P2 Store for on the run shoot... But for in a environment you have time to setup anyway, I would go with that. Now check my previous post anyway.

Also my Dell buisness laptop doesn't have a firewire port, so I would need to buy a firewire PCMCIA adaptor and hope it speed is fast ennuf. But I have GigE onboard. (I have already buy a firewire card anyway, but still would prefere a GigE option. I could have a 100 feet wire from the camera.

 

[limo991]

I'm getting about 800mbits streaming via GigE btw (desktop-integrated controller). And that is probably limited by my disks. A straight connection of GigE is very capable. The network bandwidth is not theoretical like other things. You can actually get close to the rated speed.

 

[tigeba]

Just for a frame of reference, I have done a bit of development on the Gumstix platform, which is a very tiny single board computer (uses an Intel XScale processor, same as many PDA/Smartphones). You can squeeze a VERY useful distro of linux into 4MB of flash. If pana did use linux and they chose something free vs something like VXWorks, etc, then it is very likely that they used uClinux and all the same stuff that everyone else uses. I think hacking in a driver for an ethernet interface would be "realistic", if not "easy". Personally, I think if Pana did use linux and actually releases their firmware and source, it would be nothing but a huge benefit to Panasonic. There are a bunch of devices ( Linksys Wrt54G and NLS2U come to mind) that benefit a lot from various aftermarket firmwares. People choose these devices over others just because they know they can do cool things with them. I'm not saying a $6000 camera is the same as a $60 router, but the idea is the same. How cool and useful would complete WIFI control of all camera functions be? That would be something that seems possible. What about daisy chaining multiple HVX over GigE or Wifi to pull off some sort of crazy new effect. The fact that there are multiple PC card slots really means you could add an unlimited amount of features assuming you could get access to the firmware.

 

[Benton]

mochouinard,
I think what you speak of is brilliant.
Reminds me a bit (though not the same) of Andromeda