jamedia.uk
Well-known member
Absolutely. Besides you get all sorts of innovative answers including this.....
Which I had not come across before.
Least awful way to mic a group of people from overhead?
- Thread starter Clay201
- Start date
Absolutely. Besides you get all sorts of innovative answers including this.....
Which I had not come across before.
Richard Crowley
Veteran
Those "$1 lav" mics are pretty impressive. Sure it uses a jelly-bean, 27-cent electret microphone capsule, but the connector on the other end costs more than $1 if you try to buy one. But the one shown has only a TRS connector and won't work directly in a cell phone. However there is nothing to prevent them from doing the same thing with a TRRS connector so that you COULD use it with a cell phone.
The rooftop video certainly illustrates the point we have made several times before (in this thread and others)...
A $2 microphone in the right place will sound better than a $2000 microphone that is too far away.
Its all about PROXIMITY, especially in poor acoustic conditions (which includes MOST outdoor situations).
Of course, none of this discussion applies to THIS situation because the subjects refuse to use any kind of body mic.
That pretty much guarantees dreadful recordings.
The rooftop video certainly illustrates the point we have made several times before (in this thread and others)...
A $2 microphone in the right place will sound better than a $2000 microphone that is too far away.
Its all about PROXIMITY, especially in poor acoustic conditions (which includes MOST outdoor situations).
Of course, none of this discussion applies to THIS situation because the subjects refuse to use any kind of body mic.
That pretty much guarantees dreadful recordings.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Yes but the solutions people come up with may well be useful on something else and some are ones I would never have thought of.
But you know it's your choice to read or not.
Several folks have made this case and it's logical enough. But here's why it's wrong in my case:
I don't look at this as a professional opportunity that has gone south. I look at it as a learning opportunity and, to be honest, a pretty great experience. Yes, it's true that the client doesn't give a **** about the quality of the end product. I know many (if not all) of you are used to working on jobs where the client *does* care. I don't mean this as an insult, but I gotta tell you that, at least to me, that's a very privileged position. The vast majority of people in this country work jobs where fast and cheap is the rule and quality the exception. In my world, almost no one gets to be picky about the jobs they accept. Me least of all.
Due to health problems, I don't get to pursue my interests very often. Some days, I can't even leave the house. My income is below the poverty line. I can't afford to buy much of anything. The equipment I do have... One camera (a Cannon Vixia) was a gift from a family member. My other camera cost me two hundred bucks and I almost didn't buy it because of the price tag. I sweated that decision for weeks. My primary tripod (it has a fluid head), i picked up for forty bucks because it was on sale *and* superficially damaged. My microphone was a gift from a guy who I'd done some favors for. I got a Cannon backpack almost for free. I own some cheap LCD lights. I built a "Frugal Stabilizer II" from cheap Ebay flash brackets. I picked up some SIMA QuickConnects at government auction for ten bucks. (Only two or three have QRPs, so if anyone knows where I can get some....).
I'm making two points here: 1. I can't do professional level work because I don't have the equipment. 2. I do this stuff because I enjoy doing it, not because it turns a profit (which it does not.)
On this job, I'm going to set up one camera on a tripod to capture a steady wide shot of the ceremony. That's going to be my B-roll. Then I'm going to shoot from relatively close up with my Vixia, using my fluid head tripod. Since the ceremony is 360 degrees, I'm going to have to move around the circle. (I considered building a DIY steadicam, but for various reasons rejected it). Instead, I'm going to set up my tripod for a shot, shoot it, then move and repeat the process. Obviously, the "move" part of that plan is going to produce unusable video. So when I edit, I'll just insert the B-roll at those points.
And to me this is something to get excited about. I've never gotten to use two cameras on a shoot before, nor have I ever used dual system audio. I can't wait to start editing this thing.
I've been to the venue to measure the gazebo and check out the lighting at the correct time of day. I didn't have anyone to go with me that day, so I drew a human sized face on a piece of posterboard, taped it to some foamboard, and used a stray block of styrofoam, more tape, and part of a "selfie stick" a friend gave me to attach it to one of my cheap tripods. Presto, a roughly human sized object with a face on it. I put it on the platform and then used it to determine how far away I wanted to set up my camera, how effectively I could tilt and pan without jerking the camera, etc. The cartoon face even had enough detail to allow me to test out my focus.
My point is... this is fun. I bore the **** out of my girlfriend talking about this stuff. This is the kind of thing I look forward to for months. You guys are lucky; you get to do this stuff all the time. And for a pay check. You also get to be picky about which jobs you take. I do not. These are the types of jobs I get and I feel lucky to have them. I absolutely enjoy doing them. At times, I think I know how Roger Corman must have felt.
So no, I'm not walking away. From my point of view, that would absolutely be cutting off my nose to spite my face.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your advice. And if the intended recipient was someone in *your* position, it'd be very good advice. But I'm in a very different position.
Perfectly said. The ebay link I provided has the mic with a 3.5mm jack for phones. I actually just bought 4 with a locking sennhesier connector for $3.60 each just to have in case i need a mic i can destroy without worrying about my cos11's.
If you're not having fun what else is there. I'm with ya. As Al Pacino said: "If you don't have that alacrity of spirit, then you have to check yourself - because wheres the pony in all this horsesh-t.".
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berniebeaudry
Well-known member
Hi Clay,
I read this whole thread pretty thoroughly and it was fun to see all of the creative solutions people came up with. Its a very challenging situation and you got the juices flowing. I really like your enthusiasm and passion for your project and I hope it goes well for you. I've got a few bits of info to add that I hope will be useful for you.
First, I think your idea of multiple recorders might just be the simplest and easiest solution. Simpler is almost always better in my experience. Especially if you don't have much help for the set up. You would have no cabling to deal with, you don't need to buy more mics, and you might be able to use the stereo mic you already own as well. Whether you can get them close enough to your subjects will be a key to success. Being outdoors, you'll want excellent wind protection. Omni mics tend to be less sensitive to wind bluster but still aren't immune to a strong breeze. The gazebo sounds like a pretty open structure from your description so the sound won't be reflecting off of walls so the mics might not have to be as close as you would think to sound decent. Another option would be either cardiod or omni small capsule condensers hanging from their cables from the overhead structure going into a four channel recorder that can take four xlrs and provide phantom power. This will cost you more with the addition of cabling, four mics, and the recorder. This set up will require good furry style windscreens as well. As for the squeaky floor: All you can do is ask them to not move around too much.
Here are a few links to wind screens and some inexpensive mics to consider:
http://www.cat-earswindscreens.com
http://furryheadwindscreens.com/product-category/tascam/
http://www.amazon.com/Samson-CM11B-Omnidirectional-Boundary-Microphone/dp/B000QCJ2EW
http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11502&cs_id=1150201&p_id=600700&seq=1&format=2
http://www.parts-express.com/cat/boundary-pzm-surface-microphones/762
Let us know what you did and how it went.
I read this whole thread pretty thoroughly and it was fun to see all of the creative solutions people came up with. Its a very challenging situation and you got the juices flowing. I really like your enthusiasm and passion for your project and I hope it goes well for you. I've got a few bits of info to add that I hope will be useful for you.
First, I think your idea of multiple recorders might just be the simplest and easiest solution. Simpler is almost always better in my experience. Especially if you don't have much help for the set up. You would have no cabling to deal with, you don't need to buy more mics, and you might be able to use the stereo mic you already own as well. Whether you can get them close enough to your subjects will be a key to success. Being outdoors, you'll want excellent wind protection. Omni mics tend to be less sensitive to wind bluster but still aren't immune to a strong breeze. The gazebo sounds like a pretty open structure from your description so the sound won't be reflecting off of walls so the mics might not have to be as close as you would think to sound decent. Another option would be either cardiod or omni small capsule condensers hanging from their cables from the overhead structure going into a four channel recorder that can take four xlrs and provide phantom power. This will cost you more with the addition of cabling, four mics, and the recorder. This set up will require good furry style windscreens as well. As for the squeaky floor: All you can do is ask them to not move around too much.
Here are a few links to wind screens and some inexpensive mics to consider:
http://www.cat-earswindscreens.com
http://furryheadwindscreens.com/product-category/tascam/
http://www.amazon.com/Samson-CM11B-Omnidirectional-Boundary-Microphone/dp/B000QCJ2EW
http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11502&cs_id=1150201&p_id=600700&seq=1&format=2
http://www.parts-express.com/cat/boundary-pzm-surface-microphones/762
Let us know what you did and how it went.
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jamedia.uk
Well-known member
I still think that the best bet will be to get the participants to do a voice over afterwards and mix those tracks with the ambient sound on the day and use any audio you do get as a guide. If you are filming from outside the circle, at a distance you re not likely to have to worry about absolute lip-synch for the audio.
berniebeaudry
Well-known member
These folks don't want to wear lavs, so how much chance they'll be open to lip syncing something after the fact?
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
As they will be facing into the circle and the cameraman will be some distance outside the circle I double there will be much in the way of lips to synch with! As there will be some audio recorded on the day it will give some markers for synching the VO audio. However my first instinct on this one is to walk away: the results will be disappointing for everyone.
Though I am still not 100% sure this whole thing is not a wind up.
cpreston
Veteran
Buy the $1 lav mic with a standard 3.5mm connection and a cheap lav foam and a lav furry. Tape the lav mic so that it hangs down partly into the center of the gazebo. Buy a long 3.5mm extension cable that can run from the lav all of the way to your stationary camera. Make sure you test the mic because it is going to be hard to keep it from picking up a lot of electrical interference since it isn't balanced. As long as the levels are ok and the wind is sufficiently muffled by the furry, you will be able to understand what the people are saying and you will have completed your job with the least amount of cost. If the current mic you own is either an omni or wide cardioid, you could hang that instead of the lav. Will it sound good? No. Will you be able to understand what they are saying and have completed your job? Yes.
Renting could also be a solution, something like a MKH40 from sennheiser 3 times with windjammer. positioned above the 9 people in 3 groups. Yes it will be in frame...don't worry about that. Put the stands behind them and the hang te mic over them..
So you also need 3 high stands that can reach above them.
If someone has a strong voice...it will be ok.... if someone has a weak voice...to bad for that person... Ask them in advance to speak loud...they have to pretend the guy sitting 540564560453430545343 miles away has to hear them.
And even if it are friends....don't be afraid to tell them "this is the minum I need, and this is the price".
So you also need 3 high stands that can reach above them.
If someone has a strong voice...it will be ok.... if someone has a weak voice...to bad for that person... Ask them in advance to speak loud...they have to pretend the guy sitting 540564560453430545343 miles away has to hear them.
And even if it are friends....don't be afraid to tell them "this is the minum I need, and this is the price".
UPDATE:
I did the gig. I just finished editing the footage last night and it's now uploaded. The clients are happy with it, of course. But it was a bear to work on. I used the four Tascams, spaced out around the Gazebo. They captured 98 percent of the audio, but with plenty of background noise. But that was kind of a known quantity before I even started. The problems that I hadn't anticipated... ughh.
1. Coughs, heels striking wood, and other sudden, loud noises. I had to go through and "patch" the audio to keep them from blowing out the listeners ear drums. If I'd been able to mic each participant, I could have cut out most of this.
2. Synching the audio was tough, mostly because it wouldn't stay synched. I can't tell you the number of times I had to stop what I was doing to fix the audio. I wish I'd tried pluraleyes or something similar. At the very least, I could have used a couple of loud claps to synch all my devices before the show started. But I forgot to do that because, well, my memory sucks and I was kinda nervous.
3. Since I was working with two cameras and four audio recorders, I couldn't come up with a good way to link the audio and video together. This created a number of problems during the editing process. Perhaps I just need to learn more about my video editing software, but I had a lot of difficulty when it came to cuts which required me to move multiple tracks of audio. No matter how I did it, it seemed something always got left out.
4. Since each participant was a different distance from his or her mic and since some participants moved around a good deal, the volume changed constantly. I had to increase it in some places and decrease it in others, then try to get the transitions to not sound too noticeable. Multiply this times four audio tracks.
5. I got some reverb that I can't quite explain. The audio recorders were stereo (each has two mics, each mic is "pointed" in a different direction). And wood, of course, bounces the sound. So it's not so mysterious. But if I had it to do over again, I'd still have no idea how to avoid the problem.
All in all, I'd have to say that it worked better than I had a right to expect. The MC had a great voice and was always audible. And the two main participants were easy to hear as well.
To anyone reading this who finds themselves in a similar situation: The four tascam DR-05s did manage to record almost all of the audio I needed. The results were not at all professional, but they were audible.
Thanks, everyone, for the support and advice. I learned a lot.
I did the gig. I just finished editing the footage last night and it's now uploaded. The clients are happy with it, of course. But it was a bear to work on. I used the four Tascams, spaced out around the Gazebo. They captured 98 percent of the audio, but with plenty of background noise. But that was kind of a known quantity before I even started. The problems that I hadn't anticipated... ughh.
1. Coughs, heels striking wood, and other sudden, loud noises. I had to go through and "patch" the audio to keep them from blowing out the listeners ear drums. If I'd been able to mic each participant, I could have cut out most of this.
2. Synching the audio was tough, mostly because it wouldn't stay synched. I can't tell you the number of times I had to stop what I was doing to fix the audio. I wish I'd tried pluraleyes or something similar. At the very least, I could have used a couple of loud claps to synch all my devices before the show started. But I forgot to do that because, well, my memory sucks and I was kinda nervous.
3. Since I was working with two cameras and four audio recorders, I couldn't come up with a good way to link the audio and video together. This created a number of problems during the editing process. Perhaps I just need to learn more about my video editing software, but I had a lot of difficulty when it came to cuts which required me to move multiple tracks of audio. No matter how I did it, it seemed something always got left out.
4. Since each participant was a different distance from his or her mic and since some participants moved around a good deal, the volume changed constantly. I had to increase it in some places and decrease it in others, then try to get the transitions to not sound too noticeable. Multiply this times four audio tracks.
5. I got some reverb that I can't quite explain. The audio recorders were stereo (each has two mics, each mic is "pointed" in a different direction). And wood, of course, bounces the sound. So it's not so mysterious. But if I had it to do over again, I'd still have no idea how to avoid the problem.
All in all, I'd have to say that it worked better than I had a right to expect. The MC had a great voice and was always audible. And the two main participants were easy to hear as well.
To anyone reading this who finds themselves in a similar situation: The four tascam DR-05s did manage to record almost all of the audio I needed. The results were not at all professional, but they were audible.
Thanks, everyone, for the support and advice. I learned a lot.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Sometimes "audible" is the best you can do.
RE: sync. It is very unlikely that the recorders and the cameras were running at the same speed. Not a big difference but small ones add up over time. And the less you paid for the device the less stable it's clock is likely to be. SO it was almost a guarantee that you audio would drift. The way you "fix" that is basically what you did, every so often you cut and drag them back into sync. In theory if they are just different speeds you could time expand/compress them to match but generally they are also not terribly stable and are affected by things like temperature. So practicaly speaking it's always a cut and shift fix.
That kind of work is in general a LOT easier in a DAW than a NLE, ie a sound editing program VS a picture editing program. NLE's are not designed for a lot of audio tracks and work in blocks of a frame. DAW's work at the sample level and are designed for lots of audio tracks. So a "better" workflow for you would have been to cut the picture with it's built in audio and then sent the video to an audio editor to add the tascam audio tracks and get everything in sync. The way I would probably do it is to rough sync the audio in the NLY and then send it as an OMF but that is probably not something that would work for you. A pretty good free/ cheap DAW is REAPER and it's cross platform.
BTW the way to keep a lot of audio tracks locked to video when you need to move them is to link the audio to the video. Exactly how you do that depends on what NLE you are using and maybe yours doesn't even allow more than "stereo" but most will let you link a bunch. The other way that some programs allow is to alight everything in one session and then drag that session into a new session. That works if your NLE will let you treat a session as a "clip".
RE: sync. It is very unlikely that the recorders and the cameras were running at the same speed. Not a big difference but small ones add up over time. And the less you paid for the device the less stable it's clock is likely to be. SO it was almost a guarantee that you audio would drift. The way you "fix" that is basically what you did, every so often you cut and drag them back into sync. In theory if they are just different speeds you could time expand/compress them to match but generally they are also not terribly stable and are affected by things like temperature. So practicaly speaking it's always a cut and shift fix.
That kind of work is in general a LOT easier in a DAW than a NLE, ie a sound editing program VS a picture editing program. NLE's are not designed for a lot of audio tracks and work in blocks of a frame. DAW's work at the sample level and are designed for lots of audio tracks. So a "better" workflow for you would have been to cut the picture with it's built in audio and then sent the video to an audio editor to add the tascam audio tracks and get everything in sync. The way I would probably do it is to rough sync the audio in the NLY and then send it as an OMF but that is probably not something that would work for you. A pretty good free/ cheap DAW is REAPER and it's cross platform.
BTW the way to keep a lot of audio tracks locked to video when you need to move them is to link the audio to the video. Exactly how you do that depends on what NLE you are using and maybe yours doesn't even allow more than "stereo" but most will let you link a bunch. The other way that some programs allow is to alight everything in one session and then drag that session into a new session. That works if your NLE will let you treat a session as a "clip".