Least awful way to mic a group of people from overhead?

[Bruce Watson]

An inexpensive PZM microphone in the center.

Hey, it is what it is.

Yes. A boundary mic is perhaps the OP's best bet. Doesn't have to be cheap, be sure it is omni. Only need one, on the floor, center of the circle.

This will perform poorly up to maybe almost adequate, but perhaps less poorly than other options. The OP would be well advised to get a micpre with a good amount of clean gain. A DR-40 won't likely cut it. A Sound Devices MixPre-D probably would be sufficient.

The OP might want to consider renting instead of buy/sell. A decent rental house could probably make better suggestions on micpres/recorders.

 

[paulears]

Boundary mics outside are tricky things. Wind is over exaggerated. If the ground is soft - like grass, it might be ok - but hard surfaces will let you hear every little foot shuffle. The real problem is simply distance and balance. It is, what it is!

 

[Clay201]

I would rig one mic an ATR875R on a low stand ... Educate each speaker to step forward and stand on the spot and deliver their speech.

I really can't modify the ceremony. The participants won't move; they'll stay in the circle. But I do plan to point out to them the locations of the microphones and ask them to help me out by projecting as much as they can. I'll also work with them before the ceremony to try to get the microphones as close as possible, within the limitations.

It will sound poor. ....If one of my clients wants a good product in an impossible scenario with say a tiny budget, then the professional thing to do is tell them. ... [They] dump you....then they come back when the other firm they talked to messed it up.

Yep, it's going to sound poor, no question about it. But that's what a lot of people, my clients included, are used to hearing on Youtube and other such sites. In fact, when I talked about it with them, one held up as an example of a good video something he shot with his bridge camera (that's a point n shoot with a larger lens and more optical zoom) using the onboard mic which was, I'm sure, at least five feet from the subjects. So we're talking about two entirely different standards of quality. I don't **like** the lower standard, but I'm stuck with it in this case.

And I guess the silver lining here is that "the other firm" is "Hey, you, random person, standing there with nothing to do, let me give you my really fancy I Cannon Powershot here.... Clay backed out on us, so could you get some video of this ceremony? Just point the camera and hit the little button. Thanks." So I'm not too worried about that eventuallity.

Very few recorders have multiple 3.5mm inputs. Many have one stereo, so a custom input cable...

Thanks for all the information. I'll be reading up and shopping tonight, I hope.

The Tascam Dr-05 idea is not bad, but since you cannot monitor the audio... you get clipped audio.

....Rather than buying stuff, you could rent 5 or more Sennheiser G3 wireless lav kits or a Rodelink sets for under $30 each (a couple days apiece, giving you time to test - see lensrentals).

...Alternatively, round up a dozen smartphones (I bet each participant has one) and rent a dozen Rode Smartlav+...

No matter what I do, I doubt I'll be able to monitor the audio. Even if I could, I'll have to choose between getting my shots with my camera or monitoring the audio and correcting it. One of the two jobs is sure to end up neglected.

Rentals aren't really a possibility, unfortunately. Anything I buy can be resold when I'm done so that I can get my money back and repay the credit card company. If I can't do that, I'm in the hole three or four hundred dollars. I just can't spend that money right now.

In any case, Lavs are definitely a no go.

I haven't completely ruled out the smartphone idea but... they'll be in peoples' pockets. Won't that sound worse than the DR-05s? I'll test drive the idea as soon as I get a chance. If nothing else, I'm curious to hear the results. But while we're on the subject... when you're done recording, what's the best way to get that audio off of an IPhone? Androids are allegedly a lot more friendly when it comes to file transfers. But every time I've tried to do this with my IPhone, it's been nearly impossible.

"suggestions to get some basic sound with lower quality but at least he's got something to work with."

Yes. Thank you. That's exactly what we're going for here.

"Yes. A boundary mic is perhaps the OP's best bet. ... on the floor, center of the circle."

They don't want anything on the floor. And...

"...hard surfaces will let you hear every little foot shuffle."

The floor is made of wood planks. Extra creaky.

 

[OzGizmo]

Boundary mic on the floor? Are you kidding me.......
I've never got what I would regard as reasonable sound out of them, I've used them on desks and lecturns and I would regard the sound as marginal at best.

But seriously If the clients aren't prepared to budge on their ceremony setup then as I said before ...... walk away fast

 

[mico]

In any case, Lavs are definitely a no go.

I haven't completely ruled out the smartphone idea but... they'll be in peoples' pockets. Won't that sound worse than the DR-05s? I'll test drive the idea as soon as I get a chance.

"...hard surfaces will let you hear every little foot shuffle."

The floor is made of wood planks. Extra creaky.

You'll have to get lavs for the phones. Even the cheapest, 9 of them would probably bust you budget. Tape a omni boundary to the ceiling of the gazebo in the center of the circle and get the usb thumb recorders. Still within your budget and you now got a safety backup.

Ha maybe I was wrong about the lav prices. $1 lav. Unbelievable. http://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/one-dollar-lavalier-mic-microphone-professional-lav-test

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Mi...402902?hash=item1a02757956:g:P3UAAOSw-vlVl3lo

Download software to each phone and get these lavs. Total cost around $10. Ha.https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pcm-recorder-mk-ii/id847107886?mt=8

 

[slavikb]

Those $1 lavs could be the ticket. The smartphones themselves would just act as recorders, not as the mics themselves. You can apply a 1inch piece of moleskin (which you can get at a pharmacy for a couple bucks) over each lav and tape it to the inside of the participants' shirts, so nothing would be visible. Their smartphones would be in their pockets ... hopefully with batteries semi charged ... and you could start recording an hour before the event, to get everything going. Then after the event, grab the lav from each participant and email yourself the recorded file from their phones. MP3s would be small enough to send over LTE.

...In any case, Lavs are definitely a no go.

I haven't completely ruled out the smartphone idea but... they'll be in peoples' pockets. Won't that sound worse than the DR-05s?

...

 

[Clay201]

Those $1 lavs could be the ticket.

What I haven't made clear, I guess, is that the clients not only don't want to wear lavs, they see no need for them. They never need lavs when they pull out their phone to shoot a quick video or use their point-n-shoot camera to record something. Why should they need them now? That isn't the way you and I see it, but it is the way they see it.

 

[jamedia.uk]

What I haven't made clear, I guess, is that the clients not only don't want to wear lavs, they see no need for them. They never need lavs when they pull out their phone to shoot a quick video or use their point-n-shoot camera to record something. Why should they need them now? That isn't the way you and I see it, but it is the way they see it.

Walk away from this project.

The Laws of Physics means you won't be able to capture usable sounds within the constraints placed on you by the people in the ceremony.
Tell them that.

IF they know better "the clients not only don't want to wear lavs, they see no need for them." let them do it themselves.

BTW what is the ceremony and who are these people that they are being so uncooperative? Do you have a picture of the ceremony site?


Edit: as a side note I have a DR40. It's pre amps are not that hot. So with my RODE mics I use a Fethead preamp ( http://tritonaudio.com/index.php?Itemid=33 ) so a DR40 will be of no use to you in this instance.

 

[OzGizmo]

The answer is simple...... Walk

 

[Richard Crowley]

Nominated for Impossible Situation of the Month.
And qualifies for Impossible Situation of the Year.
But it is only May.

 

[mico]

Nominated for Impossible Situation of the Month.
And qualifies for Impossible Situation of the Year.
But it is only May.


View attachment 113972

Oh my god that was funny.

Lets remember that this job is a freebie favor for some friends. As long as the friends know whats what with the sound quality. Get the best omni boundary mic you can afford, rig it to the ceiling ( because they won't let you rig it anywhere else), feed it into a recorder, and your due diligence is done. Now if you can't rig it to the ceiling or your friends don't believe in recorders get creative by making it a silent ceremony sequence in the film.

 

[jamedia.uk]

Get the best omni boundary mic you can afford, rig it to the ceiling ( because they won't let you rig it anywhere else), feed it into a recorder, and your due diligence is done.

"rig it to the ceiling...." Probably the best bet but we haven't seen a picture of this place yet. I would want to see that before suggesting positions for mics. Give the conversation so far I am not even sure the location is on the same planet as the rest of us

 

[Richard Crowley]

"rig it to the ceiling...." Probably the best bet but we haven't seen a picture of this place yet. I would want to see that before suggesting positions for mics. Give the conversation so far I am not even sure the location is on the same planet as the rest of us

Perhaps you missed the part (in the very first post) which said....

It will take place out doors on a gazebo like structure. It has wooden beams overhead, but no roof and no walls, so there will be wind blowing and birds chirping and so forth.

And then it was revealed that the floor of the gazebo-like structure was creaky wooden boards.

 

[mico]

Perhaps you missed the part (in the very first post) which said....



And then it was revealed that the floor of the gazebo-like structure was creaky wooden boards.

I did miss that. I pictured a roofed gazebo in my mind. So the question is can he rig the boundary mic on the beams with a boundary plate of laminate or cork or other material to get somewhat useful sound.

 

[jamedia.uk]

Perhaps you missed the part (in the very first post) which said....

It will take place out doors on a gazebo like structure. It has wooden beams overhead, but no roof and no walls, so there will be wind blowing and birds chirping and so forth.

And then it was revealed that the floor of the gazebo-like structure was creaky wooden boards.

No I did see that but it is not the same as seeing a photo of the place to get a better idea. Besides we might see something the OP missed as an option,

Though: creaky wooden floor, open air, wind, birds, no on-person mics, no cooperation by participants and no budget.
This has to be a wind up? It's not real.

 

[Richard Crowley]

Though: creaky wooden floor, open air, wind, birds, no on-person mics, no cooperation by participants and no budget.
This has to be a wind up? It's not real.

No, I quite believe it. I have seen worse.
Our OP is likely quite disappointed that this team of professionals could not come up with some magical solution.
However, he DID rather acknowledge the extreme conditions in the title line: "Least Awful..."

Acoustic physics. It's not just a good idea, its THE LAW!
And nobody yet (after several hundred years) has found a way to beat it.

 

[Noiz2]

Having dealt with some horrible situations like this and given that you can't walk away (remember folks this is a favor for friends), the first thing to do is to really impress on them that the restrictions they are putting on this almost guarantee that it will sound terrible. Do not be "nice" and imply it will some how work out, because the chance of that is very slim.

Despite what some have experienced I would use a pair of PZM's on the floor in the center. Put a bit of carpet under them and you won't pick up floor noise and they have exactly the pattern you need and it is one of the things they were designed for. They are used a lot on the lips of stages and such.

Now you also said they don't want anything on the floor. If that is another "rule" then you really don't have any decent options. On the floor you will gat a lot of wind shielding and the voices will be a bit more focused. In the air overhead you are going to be swamped with wind noise and environmental noise. Since they seem to want you to be invisible I doubt that having a bunch of foam wrapped mics over head is going to fly either.

Your "best" bet might actually be using the shotgun from as close as they will let you get in an audience position. If the audience can hear them then the mic should. It won't be "good" but it might be passible. Right now they are telling you they want to be a world class 90lbs Sumo wrestler. Just because you want it doesn't mean it can happen. So the ball is really in their camp. Is the ceremony so important that they are willing to risk getting no usable sound, or is the documenting important enough that they can budge a bit. If it's the former set a shotgun as close as you can and go for it.

 

[jamedia.uk]

An off the wall thought.....

Video with shotgun mics and a "background" mic This will give you the atmosphere and some of the audio from the speakers.

*afterwards* get the participants to speak their audio parts into a *good* mic in a quiet room whilst watching the video.
Then edit the sound tracks and video. Use the ambient sound from the shotguns and background mic to give the illusion of live audio recorded at the time.

 

[Scott F]

I'm all for passing on good advice, but the amount of time wasted pontificating on a $200 project.....

 

[mico]

I'm all for passing on good advice, but the amount of time wasted pontificating on a $200 project.....

Because its interesting to hear solutions for an impossible situation from a collective.

I'm still for clip on usb mics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sViS_fAjB5Q. (mic sensitivity test at 3:15). The sound quality isn't the best but at least they will be right on each of the speakers. I can't believe that the friends in ceremony would have a any problem with these getting clipped on them. Its as unobtrusive and simple as you can get.