Least awful way to mic a group of people from overhead?

C

Clay201

Member
[SHORT VERSION: What mics and audio recorders do I need to record a group of nine people, outdoors, standing in a 12 foot diameter circle, from overhead? Budget: a few hundred bucks. I already have: an ATR-25. Quality desired: somewhere between 'audible' and 'pretty good for an amateur.' Tentative plan: 4 Tascam DR-05s spread around the circle]

I would appreciate your advice. I need to mic a ceremony, but I can't get my mics as close to the participants as I'd like.

It will take place out doors on a gazebo like structure. It has wooden beams overhead, but no roof and no walls, so there will be wind blowing and birds chirping and so forth. There will be nine participants. They will stand in a circle on the outer edge of the platform (which has a twelve foot diameter). Each will speak in turn. There will be an audience of about 15 people standing or sitting outside the structure (maybe as far as fifteen feet away). They should be quiet, for the most part.

The clients don't want to modify the ceremony for the sake of the video. I can't deploy lavaliers, shotgun mics on boom poles, or hand held microphones. I'll be the videographer, but I'll be too far away (fifteen feet or more) to use a camera mounted mic. The best I can do is mount some mics over their heads using the beams. Even then, I expect the closest mic will be 3-6 feet away from the mouth of any given participant. They *will* speak loudly enough for the audience to hear them. That'll help, but I'm not sure how much.

I have an Audio Technica ATR-25 right now. I test drove it at the venue as best I could and it didn't do too badly, but its gong to be a lot tougher when there are twenty or thirty people there. One good thing I can say about this mic; it has a dual cardioid pattern, so it probably picks up more than your average cheapy mic.

My results don't need to be professional, but they do need to be audible. Think of a slightly above average Youtube video; that's all the clients are expecting. Still, I'm going to try to get the highest level of quality I can under the circumstances. To me, a slightly above average Youtube video is crap.

I can spend a few hundred bucks on equipment. Since I need to capture sound from every direction, I've considered omnidirectional mics like the Yeti snowball and the CAD GXL3000. However, they all connect via USB or XLR. I can buy a recorder like the Dascam DR-40, which has XLR inputs, but it costs 130 or more, so that's one less mic I can buy. USB mics require a Windows or Mac laptop; one more thing to set up, one more thing I can't monitor, one more thing that can go wrong.I have found some handheld mics that are omnidirectional, but I'm wondering whether they'd pick up useable audio at this distance.

So...

What mics do I need to get?
Will *any* mic located 3-6 feet away produce audible results?
Would I be better off with, say, four cheap cardioid mics spread around the circle than with one or two higher end mics in the center?
Will the superior quality of a more expensive mic even be noticeable under these circumstances?
What kind of recorder do I need?
Will using a recorder like the DR-40 make a noticeable difference?
Would the DR-40 on-board mics do as well here as, say, the CAD GXL3000?

Right now, after watching tests and reviews on Youtube, I'm inclined to just buy some Tascam DR-05s, space them out as best I can, and use the on-board mics. I was going to have to buy recording devices regardless; this way, I save money because I don't have to buy microphones. Then I can afford 4 units instead of just two or three, so I end up covering a wider area.

Opinions welcome. Thanks for reading all this.



-Clay
 
It needs to be done with radio microphones or small pocket recorders on each person or at least every second person in the circle..... If they are NOT prepared to compromise then walk away ....fast.

Remember it's YOUR reputation on the line. Sometimes its better to NOT get a job than hand up a bad recording to a client.
 
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OzGizmo said:
It needs to be done with radio microphones or small pocket recorders on each person or at least every second person in the circle..... If they are NOT prepared to compromise then walk away ....fast.

Remember it's YOUR reputation on the line. Sometimes its better to NOT get a job than hand up a bad recording to a client.
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I would give careful consideration to this advice. Ask yourself how important this client is to you. If they are important or if they will affect your future business, then ask yourself how well you know this client. They may say one thing, but after you deliver less than anticipated product, they may behave contrary to your expectations.
 
I'm not actually getting paid for this gig. It's a favor for a couple of friends and an opportunity to get some experience. I'm not even really spending any money on it. I'll buy the gear on my credit card, use it, then resell it and send the money back to the credit card company. I won't even have to pay any interest.

I've done some photos for them before and I feel pretty confident that my standards are a lot higher than theirs. In any case, I'm committed to the gig. I'm just trying to make the best of it.

The USB recorders are an interesting idea. I didn't know they existed. I might give them a try. I have a Sony digital voice recorder, though, and the audio quality is pretty horrible compared to a Dascam.
 
Clay201 said:
I'm not actually getting paid for this gig. It's a favor for a couple of friends and an opportunity to get some experience. I'm not even really spending any money on it. I'll buy the gear on my credit card, use it, then resell it and send the money back to the credit card company. I won't even have to pay any interest.

I've done some photos for them before and I feel pretty confident that my standards are a lot higher than theirs. In any case, I'm committed to the gig. I'm just trying to make the best of it.

The USB recorders are an interesting idea. I didn't know they existed. I might give them a try. I have a Sony digital voice recorder, though, and the audio quality is pretty horrible compared to a Dascam.
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Seems like a lot of restrictions with little options. I really like Richards suggestion on the thumb recorders. I'll throw in this. Since everyone now has a phone just lav them and use their phones to record each individual separately. But Richards idea is cheaper, faster , better.
 
For the sake of discussion, let's say I can't even use the USB recorders. If I absolutely HAVE to mic the participants from above, what mics should I use? We'll further suppose that the mic will be a foot or two above the person's head and maybe three or four feet away from him horizontally.
 
Your combination of outdoors, windy, distance, 360 degree angle, and essentially zero-budget just add up to make this a virtually impossible situation.
You didn't mention what kind of surface is the floor? If it is solid (concrete?) you might consider an omnidirectional barrier ("PZM") microphone.
 
Clay201 said:
For the sake of discussion, let's say I can't even use the USB recorders. If I absolutely HAVE to mic the participants from above, what mics should I use? We'll further suppose that the mic will be a foot or two above the person's head and maybe three or four feet away from him horizontally.
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How far apart are the 9 people in a circle. If you can group them closer together maybe this, since you're basically just winging it now and I'm trying to keep your cost down. For the sake of discussion if u have to absolutely have to mic from above in this situation without any other options and cost is an issue from a foot above, i would get three cardoid mics, because of their wider pattern, with good wind protection, mount and spread them out so each mic covers at least 3 people each. and cross your fingers. If you can do more than three mics all the better.
 
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It's possible I misunderstood.... I was under the impression that DVXUser was a site for low budget film makers? I actually thought that a few hundred bucks would be the sort of budget people here would be used to working with, at least on the lower end.

I don't know anything, yet, about barrier mics. I'll do some reading. I appreciate the suggestion.
 
Unfortunately, I can't reduce the diameter of the circle. It appears that there will be four to five feet between any two given people. (Here, since we're concerned with the audio, I'm measuring the distance from one mouth to the next with each mouth taking up zero space. If we were talking about lighting or blocking, I'd probably measure the distance from one *shoulder* to the next and each person would take up a foot or two, so the numbers would be different). They *will* be projecting their voices. There'll be at least fifteen feet between any given speaker and the audience. It may be more like 25 feet. So imagine the volume a person would need to produce to be heard clearly at that distance.

I appreciate the suggestion of using three cardioids. If I could make it four, surely that would be even better? Did you have any particular models in mind? I've been eyeing two different types; the relatively small, less expensive Audio Technicas designed for camcorders and using 3.5mm plugs and the more expensivie, large diaphragm, XLR mics.

If I need a recording device that can handle three or four 3.5mm audio cables, would you have any suggestions? What about three or four XLRs? The only recorder I've looked at so far that can handle four XLRs is a Tascam that retails for about 400. Maybe I could make that work, but I want to be sure it's necessary before I bite the bullet.
 
I would rig one mic an ATR875R on a low stand and put an X of gaffer or white tape on the floor where the hot spot is.

Educate each speaker to step forward and stand on the spot and deliver their speech, 3-4 feet from the mic should be OK.

That's how we do it for just about every stand up piece to camera in TV land.
 
That is just daft! There is good sound and bad sound. The opinions in this case are that the circumstances dictate a low cost solution. The low cost solution is NOT a solution at all. It will sound poor. It's outside. We all know how a tiny breeze sounds like a hurricane without serious wind control, and this makes the problem even worse. Overhead miking without any accurate aiming and narrow mics means that a good recording will be down to luck. For good quality audio, you need a good signal to noise ratio. This scenario is a bad one. If you can rig up a big ceiling over their heads (which is pretty unlikely, I suspect) then you could use a circle of PCC boundary mics (is 'barrier mic' a proper name?) but the practicalities mean using these overhead are a bit scary.

DVX user is a site for low budget film makers - but as Mr Scott said "Ye canna change the laws of physics, captain".

Good quality sound sometimes cannot be achieved on a too low budget. If one of my clients wants a good product in an impossible scenario with say a tiny budget, then the professional thing to do is tell them. To say you can do it, when you can't is more likely to drive clients away. They may well get cross, and dump you. It happened to me, then they come back when the other firm they talked to messed it up. I'd rather have the reputation than rely on guesswork and luck.
 
"I would rig one mic an ATR875R"
- That or a decent quality sensitive cardioid or hyper-cardioid. Good wind protection for either/or would likely be necessary.

Very few recorders have multiple 3.5mm inputs. Many have one stereo, so a custom input cable would be needed for 2 mics. (L/R mono> to stereo adapter)
XLRs are recommended for multiple mics, and plenty of mixers and/or recorders to choose from.

"I don't know anything, yet, about barrier mics"
- 'Barrier' mic is usually known as a "boundary" mic. Crown's PZM ©, (pressure zone mic) is a boundary mic with an integral flat plate.
 
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The Tascam Dr-05 idea is not bad, but since you cannot monitor the audio, there's a high likelihood the tests will sound good but during the live recording everyone suddenly speaks at much higher volumes and you get clipped audio.

Rather than buying stuff, you could rent 5 or more Sennheiser G3 wireless lav kits or a Rodelink sets for under $30 each (a couple days apiece, giving you time to test - see lensrentals). Set half the transmitters to one frequency, and the other half to another, then use two receivers to your camera's two channels of audio, each set to one of the two frequencies. Then hope one person isn't a heavy breather/cougher. At least that way you can monitor the audio and adjust levels on the fly, while concentrating on shooting video, rather than getting into a dedicated mixer territory with 5 or more receivers.

Alternatively, round up a dozen smartphones (I bet each participant has one) and rent a dozen Rode Smartlav+ and you'll have a lav on each person. Just have to install the app on each phone.
 
Slavikb, you can't mix wireless mic signals by setting multiple transmitters to the same frequency. At best, the receiver will lock on to the strongest single signal, ignoring the others altogether. At worst, you'll get a jumbled, noisy mess of signals that fade and crackle with the slightest shift in subject or camera position. The rule is "one transmitter -- (at least) one receiver." You then feed the audio outputs of the multiple receivers into a mixer.

With the Rodelink system (the only one of the new inexpensive digital systems I've used personally), you are limited to eight sets of transmitters/receivers in the same area. I think the Audio-Technica and Sennheiser AVX systems have a similar limitation.

- Greg
 
9 people in a wide circle , a few hundred bucks, and can't change the way the ceremony is set up. Can't be done with quality with those limitations. So should the poster fight for a ceremony change which may not be possible or should he get a sound person to do this up right which goes beyond the finances, or should we offer suggestions to get some basic sound with lower quality but at least he's got something to work with. Richards suggestion of thumb drives solves this. 9 audio thumb drives at $12 each = $108. Done. Quality out the window but he's got sound. If everyone involved understands this, go.
 
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