LAWLESS - A Marlon Ladd film

Hey, Shawn. Talking about the makeup is something I will think about next time as it might pull somebody into the characters more and that always helps, but I think as it stands all the characters did a fine enough job to make the story believable.

I also want to say that just because you were a cowboy didn't mean your face would be dirty and grimy even if you were an outlaw. Contrary to popular belief, all outlaws didn't just live out on the land. Many of them even had houses and wives.

I do appreciate you taking the time to show the pics too, but Clint was not grimy in the first pic and the only reason why he was in the second one is because he had gotten his a** kicked a couple of days before and still had the scars. "Unforgiven" is one of my favorite movies and I've seen it too many times to count and nowhere in the film were Morgan Freeman, Clint, the guy that played the kid or any of the other cowboys that I remember, grimy and dirty (unless there was a specific reason). Butch and Sundance were in a gunfight and running around and shooting in the heat, so that's why they looked that way. My cowboys definitely were dirty and two of them were scruffy with stubble though it may not have appeared that way on camera. In addition to that, they were all dressed in coats, an indication that it was cold outside and not hot, so they would not be sweating at all.

When I did the feature for this film we shot on location in the woods, at a ranch and an old west town with lots of dirt and trees, on and around horses for 12-16 hour days and our faces never got that dirty. Our clothes got dusty, but that's about it. Part of the reason cowboys used to wear those scarves in the first place was to keep dust out of their noses and mouths when it really got bad and windy. It especially came in handy for those that worked with cattle.

Sometimes though, perception becomes reality. Sometimes it's how people "thought" it was that pulls them into a story. I was trying to do the exact opposite here with this story. I wanted to make the reality become the perception.

Thanks for stopping in. I do appreciate the honest feedback and I'm glad you liked the film. Even though I disagree with some of the things you've said, that's okay. You've given me something to think about and consider, so it's all good.
 
Marlon Ladd said:
Hey, Shawn. Talking about the makeup is something I will think about next time as it might pull somebody into the characters more and that always helps, but I think as it stands all the characters did a fine enough job to make the story believable.

I also want to say that just because you were a cowboy didn't mean your face would be dirty and grimy even if you were an outlaw. Contrary to popular belief, all outlaws didn't just live out on the land. Many of them even had houses and wives.

My cowboys definitely were dirty and two of them were scruffy with stubble though it may not have appeared that way on camera.
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That's the crux of it for me. You have to sell it on camera. Movies are completely fake, and anytime I hear someone justifying choices because of 'reality' I kinda cringe. You made a choice not to go with reality when the pistols had no bullets in them? (I can understand that, I suppose. :)) But for me, I just wasn't buying that these guys are the rough 'n tumble types that you make them out to be. You gotta sell it for the drama's sake, whether it's real or not, ihmo. A lot of their shots were overexposed which didn't help either, because it washed their faces out and killed any grime or stubble that might have been there. That was another thing. Guys that are outside all day everyday with no sunscreen are tan. Yeah, it's plausible that they cover up because their ladies at home nag them about skin cancer...... but no. You have 6 minutes to sell these character's and that's where this piece fell short for me.
I liked the script, and I was buying the Bass character.
 
I would have to somewhat disagree with you Tim. I understand that reality was somewhat thrown away when the guns didnt have bullets, but I think for most people we watch movies because we may think thats its fake but in the back of our minds we are hoping that this would happen to us or that you might do something in that same situation. If we all watched movies on the basis of them being fake you wouldnt have all the CSI shows or the NCIS. All the movies would be just like Avatar. We know nothing in avatar was real and yet we enjoyed it. We know that the movie Crash was a "movie" yet we could see ourselves in those situations and doing the things that the characters were doing. Those situations happen on a daily basis. You made a comment about guys that are outside all day should be tan. Your in the middle of the woods where alot of the sun doesnt perfectly shine through. You have hats and scarfs. Your wearing a long coat and pants and boots. Most of the time your skin wouldnt even have that much contact with the sun. Yes some of the shots were washed out and it was hard to tell but there were clean shaven outlaws. From the 6 minute short we couldnt tell who these guys really were, we just knew they were famous outlaws. We dont know if they are overweight becuase they steal food and didnt pay or maybe they robbed a bank or maybe they didnt pay the sheriff for parking tickets who knows. But from what i have seen from the 6 minutes and from what i have seen from other western films this was played right on. Yes there were camera problems but you cant argue that the wardrobe or the characters didnt fit. Its a personal opinion and thats why some movies sell millions and some dont. You cant please everyone that watches a film nor can you make a film based on exactly how it was in 1800's, we werent alive back then. Each time you read a history paper its different its based on personal facts that are written down. But the main point i am making is movies arent completely fake if they were we wouldnt watch the ones we watch. PERIOD.
 
I don't mean that movies are fake situations. I mean that everything is faked in order to tell the story. Fake smoke, fake lighting, costumes, makeup, accents, .. The list goes on and on. The big reason it's faked is to sell the reality, and make it believable. If movies only used reality as their basis for production design, lighting, makeup...ect they would be really bland. I mean, how much of real life happens at magic-hour?
I think it's a very valid point that some of us feel that these men didn't look quite like the characters they were supposed to be, and that hurts the film for us, because without further characterization that sells a pale, clean-looking, larger man as an outlaw, we expect him to look a certain roughed up way and when he doesn't, it just looks like your neighbor down the street in a costume, not a real Character. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to my guns. :)
 
Tim Joy said:
That's the crux of it for me. You have to sell it on camera. Movies are completely fake, and anytime I hear someone justifying choices because of 'reality' I kinda cringe. You made a choice not to go with reality when the pistols had no bullets in them? (I can understand that, I suppose. :)) But for me, I just wasn't buying that these guys are the rough 'n tumble types that you make them out to be. You gotta sell it for the drama's sake, whether it's real or not, ihmo. A lot of their shots were overexposed which didn't help either, because it washed their faces out and killed any grime or stubble that might have been there. That was another thing. Guys that are outside all day everyday with no sunscreen are tan. Yeah, it's plausible that they cover up because their ladies at home nag them about skin cancer...... but no. You have 6 minutes to sell these character's and that's where this piece fell short for me.
I liked the script, and I was buying the Bass character.
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Tim, please don't take what I said out of context. I'm not talking about everything being reality in the film. If that was the case then we would have used real bullets and actually shot the actor. I think you know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that.

First, let me say this - my film was NOT perfect and I know that.

Cowboys? Tan? Sure, depending on the season and how often they may be outside and without a hat on. Like I said before, this was not the summer time. What I see is you inferring a whole lot about what you think you know about the old west and trying to apply it to these specific outlaws. Like pborghee said, we don't know anything about these guys other than what the story allows. You don't know where they were specifically, where they lived, how far they were from a town or anything. Again, alot of outlaws actually had their own houses and contrary to popular belief and Hollywood movies, they didn't all live out on the land.

Sorry, if the piece fell apart for you, but you're right, I had 6 minutes to sell it and in my opinion I did. The guys that played those parts did an excellent job acting and to me that's more important that anything else, especially something like dirt on the face or a tan.

Thanks for your opinion though. I don't mind having these types of discussions at all.
 
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The more I think about this short, the more I'm thinking it could have been at least another minute shorter... this one really got laborious for me :(

Just being honest.
 
Nitsuj said:
Hey man this is a good little flick you got going here. I assume Bass was played by you? Either way that was the best performance of the fest in my eyes. The grading was a little much for my taste but the rest of the film carried that weight. So I gave your film and only one other film in the fest a full 10 stars. Good job and good luck.
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Thanks, man. I'm glad you liked it enough to give it a 10!! Wow! That makes us feel like we did our job. Many, many thanks! Oh, and yes, that was me. :D
 
Will we see another tale of Bass Reeves in the next fest? You have a great character there and lot's of possibilities.
 
Tim Joy said:
Will we see another tale of Bass Reeves in the next fest? You have a great character there and lot's of possibilities.
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Well, the cat's out of the bag now. LOL! Everybody knows him. He is a great character, but the element of surprise is gone now. Not sure what I'll do though. Will be working on a feature, so I may not have time. I do wanna' do something though. What about you?
 
Just some constructive criticism as I watch all these movies: Not sure how I feel about your ultimate color correction. It's not gritty or warm like the Sergio Leone films, which is my personal preference for this genre. But moreso the colors are sort of cool and washed out and I'm not sure it's working as well as you hoped. The compression might be to be blame?

Some of the wide camera angles were flat, especially with the woods behind the actors.


There was a low angle shot I really enjoyed and would love to see more of it. These kinds of scenes from low angles really increase the power behind the characters compared to faraway flat shots.
 
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