LAFCPUG Meeting-P2 workflow discussed

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KevinScott

New member
I attended the Los Angeles FCP User Group meeting last night, and Panasonic was there with another prototype HVX-200 (non-functioning) on display. The main topic was P2 Workflow, which applies equally to other camcorders that accept P2 cards like the SPX-800. No other HD cameras were mentioned by Panasonic.

Something I haven't heard before was that another PCMCIA-form factor slot will be included on "full size P2 camcorders" for the purpose of recording a compressed MPEG-4 Proxy video of the SAME content that is simultaneously recorded to the P2 card(s). The user has a choice of three bitrates:

1. 196 kps
2. 768 kbs
3. 1.5 Mbps

The two main purposes (mentioned by Panasonic) of this proxy video is for "content approval", "Dailies".

Of course, the other natural use might be for use in an "off-line edit" of HD video, so I asked the Rep if Timecode Data was also recorded to this PCMCIA-slot card. The Rep stated that they are working to add this functionality right now... the difficulty is dealing with long-GOP MPEG video stream where the only "real" frames are I-frames and B-frames; they (Panasonic) have not yet found a way to add Timecode due to P-frames being random (by nature).

Panasonic also stated that this new PCMCIA-slot accepted a different type of card than a P2 card; and, that they were also working on a device that would drop in to this slot and transmit the MPEG-4 proxy video to a receiver (think 802.11b/g).

The only other bit of news is that Meta data recorded in the XML file structure to P2 cards is saved with the audio & video content ...when imported into FCP 5 using the File/Panasonic P2 Import command. This data can be used for search purposes; –i.e. contains Clip Duration, Clip In/Out points, Picture of first frame in each clip, Voice Annotations, etc.

To archive your work, Panasonic mentioned saving your content to LTO or SAIT tape, to Blue Ray Disc, or to a Holographic disc from a company named "InPhase". They did not show any archiving devices; they only mentioned them in a pretty lame PowerPoint presentation.

FWIW

Kevin
 
I went to that meeting and it was a total waste of time. That guy, I forget his name, was giving out false information occasionally and he kept saying MXL files instead of xml - I left early.. can't wait for dvexpo in 3 weeks
 
Proxy Edit

Proxy Edit

Photonic said:
Of course, the other natural use might be for use in an "off-line edit" of HD video
Click to expand...

I hope they dont make the same mistake Sony did with the MPEG proxys on XDCam.
They have really crappy audio quality. While that may be fine for news where you are not doing a lot of audio editing, it sucks for documentary or realityTV where your offline audio edit is pretty much a final audio edit.
 
Photonic said:
Of course, the other natural use might be for use in an "off-line edit" of HD video, so I asked the Rep if Timecode Data was also recorded to this PCMCIA-slot card. The Rep stated that they are working to add this functionality right now... the difficulty is dealing with long-GOP MPEG video stream where the only "real" frames are I-frames and B-frames; they (Panasonic) have not yet found a way to add Timecode due to P-frames being random (by nature).
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that the normal XML wrapper (being saved to P2) would already contain a low-bitrate mpeg-4 proxy. Are you reporting that proxies can't be used with the HVX?
 
Oynk said:
I hope they dont make the same mistake Sony did with the MPEG proxys on XDCam.
They have really crappy audio quality. While that may be fine for news where you are not doing a lot of audio editing, it sucks for documentary or realityTV where your offline audio edit is pretty much a final audio edit.
Click to expand...

If you're working on projects like that then why should you work with MPEG proxys? You've got more time to finish everything so make an offline using your NLE. That way you have TC and everything.

As for the timecode issue. Sure it would be handy, but for news gathering it's not that big a deal. For news you normally don't shoot that much anyway. So if can get a clear view wether the images and the quotes work, that saves quite a bit of time allready. Searching the same stuff back in the editing suite shouldn't be to much off a hassle.
For everything else MPEG proxy are useless anyway. Well, maybe to have some kind of idea of what your footage looks like...
 
OliverM said:
If you're working on projects like that then why should you work with MPEG proxys? You've got more time to finish everything so make an offline using your NLE. That way you have TC and everything.
Click to expand...
I admit that I'm new to the concept of the proxies, but I thought it would correspond directly to the original DVCPROHD file in the wrapper so that timecode and everything else would be identical. The intent being, you can edit in realtime with a lot more simultaneous streams and transitions without overtaxing your system performance and resources, and then just render the "real" files only when you're completely finished editing and ready to do so. Is that not the point?
 
Yes it is.
But I like to decide for myself what compression I use and how good/bad my image and sound should be to work with. In order of the project I'm working on and the space I've got available. So I'd rather do it myself. Besides, doesn't this nibble space off your p2 card? even if it's just a bit?
 
Offline editing with P2

Offline editing with P2

OliverM said:
If you're working on projects like that then why should you work with MPEG proxys? You've got more time to finish everything so make an offline using your NLE. That way you have TC and everything.
Click to expand...

The advantage to using proxys (which do have timecode) is fast transfer and small file size. If you have 500-600 hours of footage per finished hour of show, as in some reality shows, it is a huge savings on disk space. We never cut at full resolution.

I guess with P2s it doesnt matter since you have to move the large files off of the expensive P2s to free them up. That seems to take away a significant advantage - offline (lo-rez) editing. Ouch.
 
Hi Guys,

The HVX200 does not do proxy recording. This is only true in the larger cameras that have the MPEG4 card installed.

As far as archival, you can look to any of the IT solutions that are out there. I think that there are a lot of solutions, that are available, it is just that you may not be familiar. Take a look at Exabyte, Quantum, Dell for DLT and LTO drives. Blue-ray and DVD can be another solution. The InPhase, which I think is pretty interesting is kind of in the same boat as Blue-ray. They are not available right now and won't be until next next year.

Of course, archiving can be done back to tape, but that is the most expensive. It is really an individual choice and that is probably why the guys at the LA meeting were vague. No one wants to be responsible for another guy's decision. You need to figure out what works for you.

Best,

Jan
 
Photonic said:
The two main purposes (mentioned by Panasonic) of this proxy video is for "content approval", "Dailies".

Of course, the other natural use might be for use in an "off-line edit" of HD video, so I asked the Rep if Timecode Data was also recorded to this PCMCIA-slot card. The Rep stated that they are working to add this functionality right now... the difficulty is dealing with long-GOP MPEG video stream where the only "real" frames are I-frames and B-frames; they (Panasonic) have not yet found a way to add Timecode due to P-frames being random (by nature).

Panasonic also stated that this new PCMCIA-slot accepted a different type of card than a P2 card; and, that they were also working on a device that would drop in to this slot and transmit the MPEG-4 proxy video to a receiver (think 802.11b/g).
Click to expand...
From a colleague I'd understood that a "pro" P2 camera recorded proxies to an SD card. One of the reasons for that (apart from their near universality) is that they are widely accepted by PDAs, and the workflow idea was that a producer, reporter, whoever, could view and log material on a PDA at leisure. Without timecode, the entire concept becomes pretty meaningless! I actually thought that that functionality was already supported. (And you can, of course, get SD wifi adaptors, normally bought for use with PDAs.)

I've just bought a 2GB SD card in London today for well under £100. The shop informed me that they expect 4GB CF soon, and that they expect to sell those for "over £100, not sure exactly yet". The data transfer rate seems to be well high enough for video. I wonder when we will see the arrival of cameras based on such memory?
 
"I was under the impression that the normal XML wrapper (being saved to P2) would already contain a low-bitrate mpeg-4 proxy. Are you reporting that proxies can't be used with the HVX?"

That was not addressed at the LAFCP User Group meeting. I wonder how the MPEG-4 proxy encoding is getting done... when you suggest that this is already happenning as 'part of the normal XL wrapper'?

Regarding proxies with the HVX-200, –something would have to do the MPEG-4 encode before it could be saved to any storage medium; I think this is the reason Panasonic delegates this feature to their "full size camcorders" where a dedicated encoder card can be installed to generate this content. Makes sense.

It would be a handy to be able to provide the Director (or the Editor) with a DVD full of easily viewable clips from each day's shoot, especially if Timecode is also recorded. It appears the HVX-200 will not have this feature.

Kevin
 
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