KinoFlo setup suggestions (+ HMI background light?)

[KAY Media]

I'm looking to purchase a new lighting setup, and strongly leaning towards Kino Flo. I would be using these primarily for shooting sit-down interviews and talking head pieces. I've done my research, think I understand the differences between each light and I'm close to making a decision- but would just like to get a few opinions here in case I've overlooked anything!


I'm thinking the Diva 401 as key, either a Diva 401 or Diva 201 for fill and a Diva 201 or Barfly 200D as a hair light. I like the idea of having both lamp switches (having 4 or 2 lamps on) plus the option of dimming if I really need it (would just use plus green gel to combat the color shift) so I'm leaning towards the Diva over 4-Banks. From the photometrics I've seen, I think this combination should work well- plus having a flozier and honeycombs for finer adjustment.


I'm not too familiar with HMIs or fresnels but I think I'll need something other than a Kino for a background light (preferably would like a spherical light!). Any suggestions of something to look at there would be appreciated. It should be a couple stops below the output of a Diva and hopefully Daylight balanced as I expect to shoot with those lamps most often.


I would love to get your opinions on this setup, hopefully from those of you primarily doing this type of work and have experience with Kinos! Thanks

 

[David W. Jones]

In the majority of your talking head scenarios, what type of background do you typically have behind your subject?

 

[KAY Media]

I would say it's a 50/50 split between a seamless or muslin backdrop, and more of an on-location look using an office/lab/similar setting. I realize now while a spherical HMI type light would probably work best for a backdrop, another kino probably suits the on-location look better. Is this what you were thinking about?

 

[David W. Jones]

Just depends. If you are using daylight balanced tubes in the Kino Flos and you are wanting to keep a daylight balanced background, then an HMI might be the best call. But many times I go for a different color value in my backgrounds. I keep a "background accent light" milk crate in my van which contains Mini Mole Fresnel lights with their accessories, along with a 750w Source Four Ellipsoidal with lenses and patterns, and 2 gel rolls containing color correction, diffusion, and color washes. I use this combo for the majority of my talking head backgrounds. No matter which background light you may select, I would advise getting both daylight and studio balanced tubes for your Kino Flos so you can change them out when needed.

All the best!

Dave

 

[KAY Media]

I appreciate the input, thanks! Regarding your comment on daylight vs. tungsten balance in a studio setting... When I have complete control over the light is there any difference at all, pros or cons to using either?

 

[David W. Jones]

Some camera sensors shoot with less noise using 5600K.

 

[hscully]

I think fresnels make great back lights. You can just throw some 216 on the doors if you want to soften it a little but I like them harder. I have a hmis but even in daylight with daylight kinos I will often use the tungsten fresnel with 1/2 ctb. It works great and is then slightly warmer back light than than the key and fill. I can did up some frame grabs if you like

 

[KAY Media]

Looks like it's making more and more sense to get a tungsten fresnel for the hair light with some CTB. hscully I would love to see some frame grabs if you're using a similar setup (kinos + fresnel backlight)! Also if you don't mind I would be curious to know exactly which lights were used.

I'm looking at the Arri 300w, would that be overkill? I'm trying to compare foot candle output with the Kinos but they're two entirely different types of light sources so it's proving rather difficult. I figure I can also get scrims and/or a dimmer (although I'm sure there will be a change in color temperature, just like the Divas- any idea how drastic?)

 

[Michael Carter]

I use 300 to 750 fresnels often. The stronger the light, the more CTB you can add. The old-standby daylight front/tungsten hair looks kind of orange and 80's to me. But even 1/2 CTB on tungsten just reads mildly warm, and you don't kill your lumens.

Daylight fixtures allow you to use existing window light and get a much more natural look. Having a tungsten kit is just so cheap though... a couple 300-600 watt open faced lights and some stands & diffusion is great unless you're going very low-key and need softboxes. But daylight office interviews, no matter how much gear I bring, I tend to use one quad and one dual.

I'd say your biggest thing to think about is "key-fill-hair" - that's so tired and unnatural. Just light the shot so it looks good. I much prefer hitting cheekbones and outlining the side of a face vs. hair light, for instance.

And - my experience - you can save a bundle getting chines-made biax units without the Kino name. Like, thousands of bucks.

From the last few weeks shooting:

Daylight interior, quad biax through fabric (I have a mountain of Westscott Scrim Jim gear, but with the flos I use an old ikea curtain that's sort of mesh-ey). One dual biax behind/side with LOTS of diffusion clipped to the barn doors:



Dark restaurant - medium softbox key, open faced with round metal grid from the side, fresnel wash on the back wall - location had some daylight, enough just to bring up the shadows. 2' x 3' flag to tone down his shirt. That deep shadow on his right cheek? Most people would have filled that and gotten a flat-ass shot:



Residential interior, quad biax through diffusion, dual biax behind - there's generally enough "fill" in a daylight location to even things out - but I like a subtle highlight on temples and cheekbones - it doesn't look "lit" but has some depth. To really light up the hair in this shot, you'd need to blow it out - the biax just gives it some lift and brings out the reds:



Dual biax at camera position & no diffusion, 1k fresnel with full CTB to emulate hard window light - the fresnel was positioned about where she'd be looking straight into it if she turned her head in the direction of her body:

 

[KAY Media]

Thank you for the very detailed reply, much appreciated! This has given me lots to think about!

 

[Bruce Watson]

I'm not too familiar with HMIs or fresnels but I think I'll need something other than a Kino for a background light (preferably would like a spherical light!). Any suggestions of something to look at there would be appreciated. It should be a couple stops below the output of a Diva and hopefully Daylight balanced as I expect to shoot with those lamps most often.

Since nobody else has pointed you toward the CoolLight CDM lights, I will.

Rather than fluorescents, I went with a set of the Cool Lights CDMs. Why? Because you can't make a soft light hard, but you can make a hard light soft. All you have to do with these is add a softbox, works like a charm. So... more flexible.

If you are still only interested in a fresnel for back/hair lights, these are still interesting, because you can get both 3200K and 5400K bulbs for them. Which is way more efficient than gelling. Especially trying to pull a tungsten to daylight using a full CTB which takes around 75% of your light.

The downside, if there is a downside, is that these lights, like fluorescent lights, require a ballast. And all ballasts make a bit of RF noise. All this means is that you have to practice "safe audio" (no creating antennas by leaving your cables coiled, good grounding, etc.) and make sure you or someone is monitoring your audio. You'd have to do this anyway with fluorescents, but you should do it no matter what.

One other thing, the Cool Lights flos have quite a good reputation too; you might want to consider them.

 

[hscully]

Here are three, two from the same setup. The first setup is daylight in the room with daylight bulbs in the kino 401s ganged on one side no fill but a tungsten kicker. The first with 1/2 CTB the second with full ctb. The third, in the darker room, is all tungsten with tungsten lights in the kino 401, a fill kino 401 really low and a tungsten hair light with a little diffusion (216)

Hope that helps.

 

[KAY Media]

Especially trying to pull a tungsten to daylight using a full CTB which takes around 75% of your light.

The downside, if there is a downside, is that these lights, like fluorescent lights, require a ballast. And all ballasts make a bit of RF noise. All this means is that you have to practice "safe audio" (no creating antennas by leaving your cables coiled, good grounding, etc.) and make sure you or someone is monitoring your audio. You'd have to do this anyway with fluorescents, but you should do it no matter what.

Using a full CTB I should expect to lose 75% of the light output? I'm curious what you're basing that number on- I know I definitely will lose some output, but would never have thought it was that high. I've looked at the Lee Filters website, and from what I can tell by the 'absorption' rating I would lose about 46% http://www.leefilters.com/lighting/colour-details.html#201&filter=cf

I'm also curious about your comments on RF noise. I've read that KinoFlos are designed to be extremely quiet- and made the assumption this must be true given they are so widely used. I would be working with these in a relatively small space, approximately 20ft by 30ft, and would be using both wired and wireless lavs, shotguns, etc. How much interference are we really talking? Is this an extremely noticeable noise?



hscully, thanks again for posting those! It's great to see what other people are doing with similar setups, so I know what to expect out of it.

 

[hscully]

oh the tungsten light on those is a 200 w mole inbetweenie. I have a 300 w coollights fresnel that I also use sometimes. Make sure you have scrims. The kino divas have dimmers which are freakin' great.

 

[KAY Media]

oh the tungsten light on those is a 200 w mole inbetweenie. I have a 300 w coollights fresnel that I also use sometimes. Make sure you have scrims. The kino divas have dimmers which are freakin' great.

Thanks. I'm looking now at getting two Diva 401's for key and fill, and an Arri 650w for hair light (might be overkill, but I figure with CTB on it and scrims I'll be in the ballpark and if not there's always ND- easier than trying to work with something that is underpowered right?). I may also look at a 4ft double or single, to be used for accents or just some fill for on-location backgrounds. Trying to keep my choices pretty diverse, to be ready for many different scenarios.

 

[rob norton]

Just depends. If you are using daylight balanced tubes in the Kino Flos and you are wanting to keep a daylight balanced background, then an HMI might be the best call. But many times I go for a different color value in my backgrounds. I keep a "background accent light" milk crate in my van which contains Mini Mole Fresnel lights with their accessories, along with a 750w Source Four Ellipsoidal with lenses and patterns, and 2 gel rolls containing color correction, diffusion, and color washes. I use this combo for the majority of my talking head backgrounds. No matter which background light you may select, I would advise getting both daylight and studio balanced tubes for your Kino Flos so you can change them out when needed.

All the best!

Dave

Sorry this is off topic:

Dave, do you keep single tungsten fixtures (e.g. arri 650) in milk crates as well? Or do they get dedicated cases/go in a bigger case with others?

 

[David W. Jones]

I have a Pelican case dedicated to smaller Tungsten fixtures which has a variety lights inside, as well as milk crates with liners, which hold some of the larger Mole lights. I'll try to shoot a couple of pics when I get a chance.

 

[ProfessorU]

I completely agree with the 2 Divas and a fresnel option, especially with a 1/2 ctb on the fresnel or split tungsten/daylight on the Divas. I just make sure to use the flozier when I'm mixing, so I don't get noticeable color shadows.

I pretty much never dim my 401s. It's simple enough to pop one of the lamps out if you need 1/4 power.

Divas are significantly tougher than the other fixtures out there. If you're going to baby your kit, maybe you can get away with saving $1000. Personally, I'm glad I spent the extra cash, because I can fly with it or loan it out and not worry about it coming back in one piece.

 

[Bruce Watson]

Using a full CTB I should expect to lose 75% of the light output? I'm curious what you're basing that number on...

Google is your friend. Depending on the CTB gel you're using, it's usually anywhere from 1.5 stops to 2 stops.

I'm also curious about your comments on RF noise. I've read that KinoFlos are designed to be extremely quiet...

Audible noise isn't the same thing as RF. All switched mode power supplies make at least some RF noise. Again, google is your friend.