AC90: King Kong vs the Macho Midget?

L

lowep

Well-known member
After reading Barry Green's very useful review of the AC90 I was all set to pull the trigger... until I made the mistake of looking at the specs of the HC-X920 that is (of course Alice) too small and too cheap and has too many auto features to be considered a SERIOUS camcorder BUT does seem to have similar innards and many similar features: ie avchd2 28Mbps 1080/60p, min. lux (3), same OIS, focus peaking, zoom, aperture etc) so the main differences !!apart from price and size!! seem to be hard-nosed pro features I don't really need (ie 2xXLR, 3 rings, 2xSD slots, SD recording option)...

but maybe I am misunderstanding something?
 
It could very possibly provide the same quality of footage. However, for most people......once you are accustomed to Pro features it is quite frustrating to go back to the basics. Form factor, EVF or LCD option, XLR inputs, easily accessible controls, and actual physical appearance.....all make for a justified additional expense for me, especially when shooting for a paying client.
 
One thing for sure I know I am misunderstanding is how different types of recording codecs on these monsters influence real world image quality that in my case is video uploaded to youtube and elsewhere on the internet not television broadcast.

If I understand right 1080/60p has to be downsized to 30p before it can be uploaded so, if this is right?, at the end of the day what if any advantage in terms of IQ does 1080/50p deliver compared to 25p? Maybe Mbps and sensor size and type is a more useful yard stick for judging IQ than 60p versus 30p?

so for sure I am misunderstanding something!
 
"once you are accustomed to Pro features it is quite frustrating to go back to the basics"

+1!

what I am trying to figure out is do I need to accustom myself to pro features in order to improve IQ I get from my dinky TM300 or is there a middle upgrade path that will provide better IQ and easier field handling without having to teach an old dog too many new tricks.
 
AC90 and X920

AC90 and X920

Well, for me the AG-AC90 was the perfect fit for 1) how I want to shoot the majority of my video, i.e. features, and 2) the quality of the video that I wanted to capture and edit. So it was my upgrade purchase from my HDC-TM300...but it turns out that sometimes the AC90 is too much (size typically) and so I also added a X920 to my kit...works fine as a second camera, less colour grading to match and is 'stealthier' than the AC90 letting me less noticeable in certain situations..., and menus/features are so similar so there is less change of using the wrong setting/option when setting up under pressure. But (even given its Halloween today) you'd have to pry the AC90 out of my cold dead hands before you could get it away from me...I love the balance of pro features, image quality and reasonable price...signed "AG-AC90 Zombie" Michael p.s. if you'd like to see how the two cameras work together, check out the footage from this video I made. The footage of the couple under the arch is the X920 and the rest is the AC90... http://youtu.be/JtHzZoSIJWM
 
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lowep said:
One thing for sure I know I am misunderstanding is how different types of recording codecs on these monsters influence real world image quality that in my case is video uploaded to youtube and elsewhere on the internet not television broadcast.

If I understand right 1080/60p has to be downsized to 30p before it can be uploaded so, if this is right?, at the end of the day what if any advantage in terms of IQ does 1080/50p deliver compared to 25p? Maybe Mbps and sensor size and type is a more useful yard stick for judging IQ than 60p versus 30p?

so for sure I am misunderstanding something!
Click to expand...

60P vs. 30P is not going to be a real difference in "quality". It is a bigger difference in rendering motion. At 60P motion is smoother (less motion judder - similar to 60i) and if you want to slow-mo the footage you end-up with better results due to starting with a higher frame rate to begin with.

You may do just fine with the smaller cam and that size may be an advantage in certain situations (low profile). It is just for me, personally, if I had to choose only one it would be the one with more functionality for me.
 
As others are saying, the primary differentiation is likely to be in functionality, not in image quality. Pro camcorders are designed to operate in a professional environment, where the users expect certain connections, certain functions, a certain way of operation, etc. Consumer camcorders are designed to cram as much as possible into as tiny a package as possible. If the functionality of the 920 suits you just fine, and you don't need the additional features or controllability of the AC90, why spend the extra money? On the other hand, for those who do need those features, they'd be foolishly engaging in a false economy to buy a camera that doesn't work the way they need...
 
mrveronn said:
But (even given its Halloween today) you'd have to pry the AC90 out of my cold dead hands before you could get it away from me...I love the balance of pro features, image quality and reasonable price...signed "AG-AC90 Zombie" Michael
Click to expand...

Thanks for the useful input. Just happy to find out I am not the only one in this situation.

Halloween is a good reminder about the importance of having a good mask that I guess becomes even more important if your livelihood depends on it :-)
 
Heck, maybe the innards are similar but they are not identical if the AG-AC90 can record HD video at variable frame rates including 60p, 30p, and 24p but the X920 is stuck on 1080/60p???

Is compressing from 60p to 30p (to squeeze into most editing programs, right?) as straightforwards as taking a dog for a walk in the park or can it be as big a headache as trying to park a Hummer in a bicyle rack? Apart from whatever gymnastics this may require, does 60p end up looking the same as 30p after going through the mincer or is there also more risk of moire, artifacts etc mucking up everything. Sounds like a bit of a headache...

... in which case AC90 might be more useful. Wow! My head is spinning.

What they should put at the bottom of every Panasonic 1080/60p camcorder ad is that you can use Panasonic's 'HD Writer AE' software to convert the 1080/50p footage to 1080/50i that can use the camera to do the conversion, right? Looks like a slew of other programs can do likewise. So just have to add the cost of editing software upgrade to the cost of camcorder upgrade, and maybe also a computer upgrade to handle the bigger files, deja vu, just like when AVCHD toppled SD all over again. That means probably just a matter of time until Youtube also upgrades and AVCHD2 becomes the new norm...until AVCHD3?, 4K or whatever comes next topples that too.

Meanwhile not sure what if any difference recording in 1080/50p then downsizing to 50i will make compared to recording in 1080/50i apart from how doing it that way provides a back door that permits using all the other features in the compact & economical X920 package instead of a bigger and more expensive camcorder just like buying a cheap McDonalds Happy meal instead of a Big Mac and not eating the toy.

Lots to learn
 
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Here's some extra notable features at the top of my head.

The AC90 can record straight to 24p. The X920 can only do 24p within 60i. You have to do some conversion to the X920 footage to fix that but eighter way, the 24p mode of the AC90 will look a bit better.

The stock battery in the AC90 can shoot for far longer. Around 4 hours.

You can hook it up to an outlet instead of using the battery. I'm not sure if the X920 has that or not. It might.

Comes with a full 3 year professional warranty unlike the X920 that comes with a standard consumer warranty that's probably 1 year parts and 3 months labor or something like that.

It might still come with a card that allow you to get Barry Green's book and CD on the different ways to use the camera. I'm not sure if that's still in effect.

You can also set it to full auto like the X920 if you like.

It's a trade off. On one hand, you get significantly more features which can be very important for some gigs but on the other hand, it's more expensive, heavier and bigger than the X920 so if you need something portable and can live without some of the AC90's benefits, you'll be fine with the X920.
 
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lowep said:
What they should put at the bottom of every Panasonic 1080/60p camcorder ad is that you can use Panasonic's 'HD Writer AE' software to convert the 1080/50p footage to 1080/50i that can use the camera to do the conversion, right? Looks like a slew of other programs can do likewise.
Click to expand...

My AC90 didn't come with HD Writer, and is not compatible with the HD Writer that came with my TM900. AFAIK, HD Writer is only compatible with the camera it was included with, unless there is a generic version for all cameras.
 
Definitely as you say: "it's a trade off"

In the end after debating back and forth between these two options I jumped ship and bought a used Sony EX1 kit for the same price as I would have paid for an AG-AC90 that I figure will not be nearly as convenient but will open up new opportunities -- once i figure out how to use it that I expect will take more time.
 
Perfectly stated. Thanks Barry for all the wisdom and advice you provide on these boards.

Barry_Green said:
As others are saying, the primary differentiation is likely to be in functionality, not in image quality. Pro camcorders are designed to operate in a professional environment, where the users expect certain connections, certain functions, a certain way of operation, etc. Consumer camcorders are designed to cram as much as possible into as tiny a package as possible. If the functionality of the 920 suits you just fine, and you don't need the additional features or controllability of the AC90, why spend the extra money? On the other hand, for those who do need those features, they'd be foolishly engaging in a false economy to buy a camera that doesn't work the way they need...
Click to expand...
 
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