Ki Pro Mini, Prores and TV Logic questions...

Duke M.

Duke M.

Veteran
I have several interrelated questions. Since I'm a PC and Nano user, I'm not used to Prores or Ki Pro Mini specifics especially for use with an F3. If I can get specifics from other more experienced users I'd appreciate it.

PRORES QUESTIONS:
1) I have zero experience with Prores or its various flavors. Is Prores HQ 422 overkill for most situations? (Just as Nano's 280Mbps i-frame is overkill.)

2) If so, (assuming proxy is too compressed) my choices are between SQ and LT. I believe they are both 10bit 422. Is there any difference between them other than compression? Is it correct to assume that due to the VBR that LT is fine for most scenes not involving large amounts of motion, and then SQ is better?

3) There is a free plug-in for using the latest versions of Prores in Premier. I can't find the link right now. Does anyone have it?

KI PRO MINI QUESTIONS:
a) I want to enable time code trigger, and so far haven't gotten it working, so I've been researching it. Simply selecting the menu option on the Ki Pro Mini isn't enough. Some notes indicate I need to have an SxS card in the F3. SxS only, or will an SDHC card in an adapter do it? (My SxS cards are much lower capacity.) I understand the F3 menu for time code has to be set properly. Which settings?

b) Card spanning? One of the great things about the Nano is automatic card spanning. One fills up and it automatically switches to the next one. Are there plans for any firmware that allows spanning for the Mini?

c) Mounting options. I have the mini and the cheese grater. Putting the mini on a short arm screwed into the top edge of the camera seems likely to create imbalance. Mounting it on rails at the back requires really long rails if you use a brick d-tap battery (which is what I'm doing.) Any suggestions for mounting the Ki Pro mini?

d) I have 400x CF cards which have been quite reliable for my Nano. I know they are not certified for the Ki Pro Mini and won't work for HQ. Shouldn't 400x CF cards be fine for SQ or LT though?

TVLOGIC QUESTION:
i) The TVLogic 056W states its power requirement is 7-12v. Usually you can go a couple volts over because batteries charge a few volts higher. The F3 is a nominal 13v so the brick batteries go up to ~15.5v. Is it safe to run a D-tap to run the TVLogic monitor if the battery is 15.5v?
 
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PRORES QUESTIONS:
1) I have zero experience with Prores or its various flavors. Is Prores HQ 422 overkill for most situations? (Just as Nano's 280Mbps i-frame is overkill.)

no in my opinion, pro res in actuality is a pretty inefficient codec, the more data you let it process the better outcome you have. but you have the opportunity to gain and retain your full 10 bit signal. In my opinion that's protecting your content for the sake of a little more hard drive space. at 1.3-1.6 gb a minute, I really don't think it's a big deal, for the gain of much higher quality. just the boots from 8 bit to 10 bit recording alone has a lot of visual differences I can see, let alone when you start doing multiple amounts of transcoding (generational loss) color grading, and vfx. But it comes down to, pro res hq introduces less noise than a higher compression pro res would. it benefits your footage in every way, just depends on you WANT it, not really if you "need" it.




2) If so, (assuming proxy is too compressed) my choices are between SQ and LT. I believe they are both 10bit 422. Is there any difference between them other than compression? Is it correct to assume that due to the VBR that LT is fine for most scenes not involving large amounts of motion, and then SQ is better?

8 bit 422, only HQ is 10 bit. IMHO, LT and Proxy are offline codecs, but you won't see too much visual difference between LT and SQ. sq will hold up better in post. proxy you see major differences.




3) There is a free plug-in for using the latest versions of Prores in Premier. I can't find the link right now. Does anyone have it?
on a pc, pro res playback is built into quicktime, you can edit it right away (or just google pc quicktime pro res) and something should pop up for the plugin install native in to qt. however you'll never be able to write in pro res, so your output would have to be another lossless codec like cineform, or uncompressed. I wouldn't do dnxhd, pro res to dnxhd results can be really funky. also quicktime rendering on a pc gets really strange too...

KI PRO MINI QUESTIONS:
a) I want to enable time code trigger, and so far haven't gotten it working, so I've been researching it. Simply selecting the menu option on the Ki Pro Mini isn't enough. Some notes indicate I need to have an SxS card in the F3. SxS only, or will an SDHC card in an adapter do it? (My SxS cards are much lower capacity.) I understand the F3 menu for time code has to be set properly. Which settings?

it's under your timecode record options, it's there, i forget the name of it off the top of my head, but whatever you can set to "rec run" and when you hit recordo on camera it will trigger record on ki mini via timecode. but you have to have media in your camera or it won't work.



b) Card spanning? One of the great things about the Nano is automatic card spanning. One fills up and it automatically switches to the next one. Has any firmware come out that allows spanning?

not at the moment, it's been my biggest complaint, why even put two slots in if you can't span record? it was a promised feature too.



c) Mounting options. I have the mini and the cheese grater. Putting the mini on a short arm screwed into the top edge of the camera seems likely to create imbalance. Mounting it on rails at the back requires really long rails if you use a brick d-tap battery (which is what I'm doing.) Any suggestions for mounting the Ki Pro mini?


lot of people have been using the red rock plate or zacuto zwiss plate and just mounting it on the back. it extends the length of your camera, but offers some back weight if you need it. personally i find both options kind of annoying, i think once hot rod has that side handle removal option, putting a offboard recorder there will be ideal.

 
Are your sure SQ and LT are 8bit? Several cites say they're 10 bit. If 10bit SQ may be the one for ordinary use.

Can anyone point me to an active link on the Prores white paper or have a copy? All the links I've found are broken or I'd check myself.
 
Duke M. said:
c) Mounting options. I have the mini and the cheese grater. Putting the mini on a short arm screwed into the top edge of the camera seems likely to create imbalance. Mounting it on rails at the back requires really long rails if you use a brick d-tap battery (which is what I'm doing.) Any suggestions for mounting the Ki Pro mini?
Click to expand...

Ki Pro Mini Mounting Options:

http://www.aja.com/pdf/Ki_Pro_Mini_Mounting_Options.pdf
 
that's interesting, because i remember reading when pro res first came out is that sq was 8 bit, not sure if they actually changed, that, current literature is wrong, or previous literature was wrong.
 
For Duke M. -
It seems like there is some misinformation starting to creep into this thread, so I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. (Please note, for the sake of clarity, I have made some corrections to the nomenclature used in the questions that were posed in addition to abbreviating them in some cases.)

ProRes Questions:
1) Is Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) overkill for most situations?
Reply: In most situations, Apple ProRes 422 is more than adequate; it represents a "sweet spot" between bandwidth/storage requirements and image quality. It's maximum bit rate is 147Mbps. If you were to do a split screen with uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2, you would be hard-pressed to see a difference between the two images. The higher bit rate (up to 220Mbps) Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) is best suited for workflows where heavy compositing or color correction will be needed in post production. All of the Apple ProRes 422 codecs are 10-bit 4:2:2 (the Apple ProRes 4444 codec, which the Ki Pro Mini does not record to, is capable of 12-bit.) With regards to the other Apple ProRes 422 codecs, Apple ProRes 422 (LT) and Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy), I personally don't feel that these are adequate for production use; post production uses, yes, but for acquisition, Apple ProRes 422 and Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) would seem to be the better choices.

2) Is it correct to assume that due to the VBR that Apple ProRes 422 (LT) is fine for most scenes not involving large amounts of motion, and then Apple ProRes 422 is better?
Reply: Apple ProRes 422 (LT) is 100Mbps (or lower) in terms of the data rate produced, and therefore, I would tend to not recommend it for acquisition in most cases. I-frame codecs tend to produce better results at data rates of 100Mbps and higher; this is true not only of the Apple ProRes codecs, but also of other I-frame codecs on the market. Unlike Long GOP MPEG2 codecs, motion isn't the item that tends to be most affected, but rather overall picture quality. The less a frame tends to change, yes, the lower the Mbps that might be required to reproduce the scene faithfully. Again, I would tend to recommend Apple ProRes 422 for best results and Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) for certain more complex needs in post production; I would personally only apply the "visually lossless" nomenclature to the Apple ProRes 422 and Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) flavors of the Apple ProRes 422 family of codecs.

3) There is a free decoder for using the latest version of the Apple ProRes codecs for use within Adobe Premiere. Does anyone have it?
Reply: By default, QuickTime version 7.6.x (not sure of the precise version number at the moment since I'm out of the office, sorry) includes the Apple ProRes decoder. This should be true for both Windows and Mac users. If you have version 7.5.x of QuickTime installed on your computer, then you would need to have the appropriate Apple ProRes QuickTime Decoder installed. A version was offered for both Mac and Windows users, but QuickTime version 7.6.x may have supplanted this as those updates date back to 2008.

Ki Pro Mini Questions:
a) I want to enable timecode trigger, and so far haven't gotten it working, so I've been researching it.
Reply: The basic criteria for Ki Pro Mini Arm Recording is as follows, when working with the Sony PMW-F3 (as well as other cameras). The first step is to be sure that the Sony PMW-F3 is outputting timecode via the SDI. (By default, the Sony PMW-F3 seems to output SDI embedded timecode from what I can infer from the operation manual if the output is set for HD-SDI.) The second step is to be sure that you are using media in the camera and that the timecode for the camera is set to record run. For the Sony PMW-F3, the information regarding record run timecode can be found on page 120 of the the Sony PMW-F3 operation manual. The camera needs media inserted that can be recorded to in order to produce starting and stopping timecode that the Ki Pro Mini uses for the Arm Recording feature. The next step is to be sure that the Ki Pro Mini is set to use SDI RP188 for the timecode source. This is configured in the CONFIG menu parameters, 8.0 TC IN, by setting the parameter to SDI RP188. The next menu parameter to configure from the CONFIG menu is 8.3 ARM RECORDING. Here you want to set the parameter to TC/REC KEY. If these items are set accordingly, then the Ki Pro Mini should begin recording after the timecode in the camera begins to roll after it's record button is depressed. When the camera stops recording, then the Ki Pro Mini should stop recording; the Ki Pro Mini uses incrementing timecode to realize the start/stop commands. Please note that in some cases, cameras can go into an "idle" state and they will sometimes "burp" the timecode of the media when coming out of idle, causing a short recording on the Ki Pro Mini. For detailed operational information on Arm Recording and the menu settings noted above, see page 37 of the Ki Pro Mini operation manual, found here:
http://www.aja.com/pdf/AJA_Ki_Pro_Mini_Manual_v2.5.pdf

b) Card spanning? Are there plans for any firmware that allows spanning for the Ki Pro Mini?
Reply: At this time, the Ki Pro Mini does not provide the ability to "span" cards; if AJA provides such a feature in a future firmware update, it will be considered "rollover" as opposed to spanning (to be precise about the terminology used). Contrary to another posting on this thread, this was not a promised feature of the device, but rather something that AJA has said it would like to offer in the future. The device has two CF slots so that users can use the SLOT button to unmount the first piece of media and mount the second piece of media without having to physically remove and insert new media to quickly begin recording again. You can refer to the Ki Pro Mini operation manual, page 10, for proper use of the SLOT button. I would strongly recommend reviewing the operation of the CF media and the SLOT button as appropriate removal of CF media from the device is an important procedure.

c) Any suggestions for mounting the Ki Pro Mini?
Reply: The Mini Mounting Plates, used in combination with the Ki Pro Mini, allow for a wide variety of mounting options. One useful resource is the AJA-provided document found here:
http://www.aja.com/pdf/Ki_Pro_Mini_Mounting_Options.pdf

If you still need assistance, you might consider working with your AJA reseller directly as they may already have suggestions and options available that have been provided to other customers.

d) Shouldn't 400x CF cards be fine for Apple ProRes 422 or Apple ProRes 422 (LT) though?
Reply: Do not use media with the Ki Pro Mini that is not qualified for use; this can result in any number of possible errors far beyond AJA's scope to control. The current qualified list of media is provided at this link from the AJA website:
http://www.aja.com/pdf/KiProMini_qualifiedCF_cards.pdf

Since you do not mention whether you plan to work with the material in a Mac or Windows based editorial environment, I will also let you know that some CF card readers used under Windows sometimes do not read the HFS+ formatted Ki Pro Mini CF cards. This is not a fault of the Ki Pro Mini media, but rather seems to be an issue with CF card readers sometimes loading drivers that assume that all CF media is formatted FAT32. In particular, the Syba Best Connectivity 2.5" SATA/USB 2.0 to Compact Flash Adapter works under Windows 7 with the HFS+ formatted Ki Pro Mini CF cards. You can find it on Amazon for less than $20 USD. If you are working on a Mac OS system, we have not seen any such issue with the majority of CF card readers available in the marketplace.

As with all AJA products, if you still feel you need assistance, don't hesitate to contact AJA Technical Support. The service is provided free of charge and the support is provided Monday through Friday from 9am to 5pm PST via phone or email. Please note: AJA is closed in observance of the 4th of July in the United States.

Hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
Perfect. Thanks!

EDIT: The white paper does say that both SQ and LT are 10 bit. Since its intra frame (half as efficient as Long GOP) with LT at 82mbps I'm not sure it would even qualify for the BBC. SQ at 117mbps for 24p they still describe as visually lossless (even though it is lossy.)

EDIT 2: Just saw your post, thanks Jon.
 
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Duke M. said:
Speaking of HFS file structure, don't I need a plug in to read that on a PC? Any links?
Click to expand...

mac drive. and right now only the "symba" usb reader works with reading the CF cards. something about internal pc generic drivers seeing it as a cf card and trying to mount it as a fat 32 volume, when it should be mounting it as a hard drive because it's formatted hfs.
 
Jon, that got the time code trigger going. It was RP188 that wasn't set.


CNET had macdrive. After I install macdrive I'll try a couple of CF card readers that I already have. Tom, I'm finding a different spelling. Could that be Syba instead of Symba?

EDIT: With macdrive by MediaFour installed the files were recognized and played on my XP PC with a generic cheapie CF card reader. (Dane-Elec brand.)
 
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Great. I'm almost there.

About the only thing I haven't heard yet is if I can use a nominal 13v battery, which is actually charged to 15.5v, to run the TVLogic 5.6" monitor. I tried emailing TVLogic a couple days ago but no response. It may be the holidays though.
 
Duke M. said:
TVLOGIC QUESTION:
i) The TVLogic 056W states its power requirement is 7-12v. Usually you can go a couple volts over because batteries charge a few volts higher. The F3 is a nominal 13v so the brick batteries go up to ~15.5v. Is it safe to run a D-tap to run the TVLogic monitor if the battery is 15.5v?
Click to expand...

You must be safe using any pro battery with a D-Tap output and the TV Logic 30" D-Tap to Mini 4-Pin XLR Cable for VFM 5.6" Monitor.

http://www.filmtools.com/tv-logic-d-tap-to-mini-xlr-cable.html
 
Thanks for the link but I'm not so sure it 'must' be safe. That monitor has a DSLR stretch feature for use with the 5D and 7D. I've seen it used with a battery pack below those cameras that has a D-tap. That battery pack is 7.4v. Lots of cameras use batteries within that nominal 7-12v range.

It will 'probably' work, but I'd like to avoid a $1,200 mistake if it doesn't. :zombie_smiley:
 
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