KEEP IT SIMPLE - RED - CAGELESS - Option

Greg Voevodsky

Greg Voevodsky

Active member
I too like the look of the new prototypes. However, may I suggest another optional configuration of RED (KEEPING IT SIMPLE) - CAGELESS.

I'd like to see a more Traditional Camera style option - SMALL & SIMPLE.
1. NO CAGE - CAGELESS
2. SIMPLE - REMOVABLE HANDLE on top and accessory shoe (or 2) with Microphone holder - like the Sony PD-170.
3. RUBBER COVERS for all inputs (like Sony) to protect from sand and dirt.
4. HARD DRIVE BOX - under camera or on back (so I can quickly swap drives without removing the camera from the tripod). Same with battery packs.
- I'd like to be able to quickly pull the camera from the backpack bag, slide it on a tripod, open the screen, snap on the mattbox, turn on and shoot. It should be able to fit fully assembled with shotgun mic, battery, drives, tripod shoe (maybe even matt box) in a normal carry on camera backpack.

PLEASE - SHOW COMPLETE - WORKING MODELS with all needed Accessories.

Please show Red with a Lense on the front (either your 300mm or wide angle zoom) completely set up in its various configurations.

For example, I want to see it CAGELESS and small on a tripod with a lense, mattbox, battery, shotgun mic, viewer open on the side... in a run and gun mode.

I think the RED TEAM would get a lot more real world feedback by showing fully equipped cameras with all needed accessories. (Neither Canon or JVC show their cameras without lenses in their ads.) I look forward to seeing RED in all of its set ups.
 
Greg Voevodsky said:
I too like the look of the new prototypes. However, may I suggest another optional configuration of RED (KEEPING IT SIMPLE) - CAGELESS.

2. SIMPLE - REMOVABLE HANDLE on top and accessory shoe (or 2) with Microphone holder - like the Sony PD-170.
Click to expand...

The RED is cageless... the cages are optional. It's pretty funny that you just used RED and PD-170 in the same sentence. I laughed.
 
Greg,

I think you've given some good feedback! I also think the cool thing about the RED One camera system is its modular approach. Even when I use the Cage, which by the way I like for some applications, I'd also like to use RED cageless with the top handle, and configured like you described for easy tripod/hand held transitions. I do a mix of large crew production, mid-sized crew, and real mobile lone wolf stuff where I need to tote all the gear, and quickly transition from tripod to hand held. Sometimes the camera will be accessorized to the max for stationary cine-style production, and other times it will need to be stripped down to a cageless run 'n gun profile.

So far we've had to largely use our imaginations to visualize the various setups we can do with RED - except for Curt's great compositing examples! RED has said the camera form factor and accessories have not been finalized and are in an evolutionary status. Maybe that's why they are reluctant to do composite mockups of the different accessory configurations - because they are constantly changing. Keep in mind that the reason they keep changing is because potential user input on forums like this gives them a feel for features that are in demand. It's a digital cinema camera, so RED has a pretty good handle on what is desired in the cine-style genres. It's also a convergence camera, with 1080i, 720p, and B4 mount planned, so essentially ENG-style accessory setups like you've described are very important for them to get feedback on - especially from convergence shooters who plan to use the camera in both cine-style and ENG-style setups. I'm one of those, and it sounds like you are too.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
I completely agree with you, Gibby. I want me the RED to cover a similar range of workstyles as you do. A sleek all weather rubber cage/cover to protect this precious baby in rough situations would be fine. But maybe that's rather a third party product.
 
ditto Greg

ditto Greg

I agree with everything Greg said. I love the look of the red rail and cage, but I want to be able to stuff RED in my back pack and take it on hikes. The rail looks too big for that. I think most people will get the rail and use it all the time. I wonder if the rail can be taken apart and fit into carryon luggage. Maybe red could make a mini red cage for me and Greg. I agree with Greg about wanting to see it with lens mounted and batteries and drive and mounted on a tripod. I will go one step further. I want to see it with all the connecting cables. Will it look like a spaghetti mess hanging off the side of the camera? I understand this is a wok in progress. I am not complaining. I am glad to see any pic of the red camera at all, but I would like to see it as a real mock up not just CG.
 
Thank Gibby and Acrochordon,

I completely agree with both of you. I'd like to see renders of Red - cageless - with all the wires too, on a tripod in a run and gun style. I hope the large lcd flat viewfinder can be mounted permanently on the left side, so you can just flip it open and shoot. I don't want to be mounting stuff on my camera out of the bag except maybe the mattbox and the mic.
 
I'm not so bothered about the stripped down, ENG use of the camera, but like Greg says one of the things I'd really like to see is a fully kitted out system (lens, mattebox and all). Or rather, different variants of a fully kitted out system - so you could show it "ENG Style", "Sports Style", "Cinema Style".

It's one of those things that's kinda nagged at the back of my mind, but I never actually verbalised before. Probably 'cause the pictures we've seen of the camera so far have been (from a purely aesthetic viewpoint) awesome. But it'd be great to see the camera in it's various iterations (some scale would be nice too).

I know some of the guys on the board have done their own renders of what it'd look like, but I'd love to see some "official" pictures from the team of a full package. Oh yeah, & could we have 'em as 360° QTVR's?

:thumbsup:
 
Greg Voevodsky said:
Thank Gibby and Acrochordon,

I completely agree with both of you. I'd like to see renders of Red - cageless - with all the wires too, on a tripod in a run and gun style. I hope the large lcd flat viewfinder can be mounted permanently on the left side, so you can just flip it open and shoot. I don't want to be mounting stuff on my camera out of the bag except maybe the mattbox and the mic.
Click to expand...

There will be stainless steel hardpoints on the camera body itself, so you can mount the screen wherever you want. They have consistently stated that the screen will be detachable. In my published interview with Jim Jannard, he emphasized that the screen technology may or may not be LCD. It will be high resolution - Mike Curtis has reported from IBC that it will probably be 1280x720. The technology options for the screen may include LCD, SED, OLED. LCoS, or Nano LCoS.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
My bad Chris, you're right, it was for the EVF. As you say, hopefully the screen will be 1280x720. I remember reading a few months ago about very small viewfinder monitors are now being produced with Nano LCoS technology that are 1920x1080. That's also some food for thought...

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
More ideas:
I'd rather see RED get a bit fatter, taller or longer like the other cameras.
I love the small compact design of the small Arri 16mm or Viper.
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/5258/1157830156.jpg

I like how the cables come off the side and not 90% off the body... maybe putting all the cabling underneath the camera at 45 degrees for mics, time code, video out etc... might work or parallel out like the from the side but facing back out the camera. (thus making the camera fatter like the Arri) - counter balance with the viewfinder and lcd pop out on the right.

I think compact is more important than balance when using a tripod with smaller batteries.
Go with bigger batteries and rails for over the shoulder for better balance. These problems have already been solved or compromised with years of evolution from other cameras. Since this is a cine-camera, shooting it like a home video camera held up to your eye, without a shoulder mount should be the lowest priority!

However, keeping it small like the Arri or any 16mm camera or steadycam set up should be #1 in my opinion since most of us are run & gun, documentary, or low budget feature shooters. For the big studio productions with huge panavision $100,000 zoom lenses there is already a solution with the huge geared tripod heads with balancing plates, huge rails to support the lense, etc... like the sony HD pics900.
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/5258/1157941147.jpg

I much rather see a smaller Viper or Arri set up with smaller lenses and affordable run and gun style with red lenses (not home video or Hollywood). Hollywood has the time and money to figure out how to add a huge lense to it and mount it on a tripod, dolly or crane. Come on, we want to carry this camera - 1 person - documentary style / news style and cine style to shoot. It's easy to then Hollywoodize it like the HVX-200 into film style... it's harder to make it small and work - tripod and then shoulder for one person to handle. Please, we can take a vote and see who the majority of shooters of RED will be... but I'm betting its mostly the low budget, independent shooters, and indie-filmmakers. Hollywood is doing just fine with its cameras right now, until they see how much money they can save... Make RED 2 for them... but RED 1 for us fellow Entrepreneurs and indi-filmmakers. Thanks.
 
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Off topic:Damn that Jim Jannard i cant get my workdone for thinking about things red. I bet he even had some input into the F1 race at the weekend since we had another red (Ferrari ) win. Sob Sob.

On topic: I like the comments so far on both sides. But lets get a couple of things ironed out before we move on to improvements. Like it or not the futuristic/industrial/ doom like look of the camera is what we are going to get. This is Jim Jannards baby, his dream, his vision of what he likes. Respect that and realise that he thinks differently, he comes up with ideas that are different. Some ideas will work others will not. No one knows what the finished article will look like as it is constantly changing. That said, you can bet it WILL NOT look like any of the OTHER cameras. Red does not want it to look like other cameras. Red wants it to be instantly recognised as a "Red camera" it will market red/oakley design full stop.

When we compare red to other cameras are we really comparing like for like. When i looked at the photo of the arri that someone showed in a recent post i thought it looked great. It looked balanced, it looked right, but how modular is the camera.

Greg. maybe compact is more balanced!

In designing the red camera with modularity uppermost in their minds red has to think differently. Red cannot build some of the traditional fitments into the body without allowing them to be removed at a later date. Red looks like they are trying to add more useful features into the camera so that it does more than other cameras. Thats great, but how do you achieve that and still not have many of the components permanently fixed onto the body. That is one hell of a difficult thing to do right and still have a balanced looking camera.

On top of that others have said that the red cage concept will avoid the over use of gaffers tape. Again red are trying to please by allowing those extras to be properly attached to the camera without having to tape them on! Someone mentioned xmas tree, you cant help feeling that there must be a limit to how many items can be attached to the camera and STILL be able to be used out in the field. I thought the new body design was going to show the body in three seperate parts joined together. Maybe we just cant have all the normal parts being modular as a seperate entity, but as a built in package of several parts in one unit and the camera having several units as a combined camera. Maybe it has? Other than studio use i just dont see the camera body size remaining that small, bristling with added parts cage or no cage for field use.

If its going to look like a BFG gun it may as well look like one with a bigger body but similar design. :)

The back end of the shoulder mount makes the whole package look too long? Long and thin, does that make it less stable than fat and chunky? You guys might know, i think it might but i dont really know. The problem with photos and a camera in development/progress is that it cannot show everything as it should be. I think the back end of the camera only looks too long because we have very slim like battery and possible recording option likewise slim looking. Stick a wireless receiver spare magazine fatter battery on the back and it will look better. Though i still think it may be the thin camera body that makes the red rails look too long. The shoulder brace looks too neat and lacks good padding. This is probably crazy but what if the shoulder pad was more like a gladiater's armour protection that fitted into your whole shoulder and upper body frame. It could become part of you and offer a steady cam type design.

Bigger BFG, body armour, what the hell am i thinking it is RED DOOM :D

Michael
 
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Greg Voevodsky said:
I'd like to see a more Traditional Camera style option - SMALL & SIMPLE.
Click to expand...
Something like this?

(sorry Jared if I've just done what is called double posting in forumspeak, if it is, I promise not to do it again, just too many threads complaining about the rail...)
 

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Yes - Andrew

And after some reading, I understand the hard drive and battery pack rotates and can also go underneath the camera.

I'd like to see a lense, flip out viewer, and mic - all on a tripod - as well as Jims Porsche 959 doing 180mph on the racetrack. Please post both when possible. ;-)

PS- if Jim wants a cameraman to film his Porsche 959 doing 180mph with a red camera from the passenger seat, I volunteer!
 
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