JVC will support SxS

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esturm

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Hi Folks,

maybe this is good news: JVC will start an alliance with SONY and support the SxS media. This will be used in the dock recorder KA-MR 100, which will be available in March 2009.

So, prices may drop ... (hopefully)

Cheers, Eva
 
Panasonic has a great front-end to their cameras.

Now what if -- and that's a big "if" -- they adopted the XDCam EX format and went to a full 1920x1080 format and 57 minutes per 16-gig SxS card?

It would give the people who don't want CMOS artifacts an option, reduce the storage requirements and provide folks who what a full 1080p raster a full-sized frame with square pixels.
 
Panny is pretty big on not doing long GOP on their HVX200 and above cameras, so that would be the thing there.

I'm sure one day when the need arises, we will see P2 make it's way to an expresscard form factor.

Anyways, good news for SxS users on broader format support. Always a good thing.

Later,
Jason
 
While I was surprised (but happy) JVC have gone SxS, I would be stunned if Panasonic moved to either SxS OR MPG2 LONG GOP.

They have been so critical of LONG GOP compression since the HVX came out using DVCProHD rather than HDV they would look like complete idiotic hypocrites if they did that.

Oh wait, their new 170 solid state SD "Pro" camera uses MPG4 LONG GOP, even higher compression than MPG2....

I think you will see Panasonic conveniently ignore the reason they dissed MPG2 was because it is is long GOP (and just maintain a general anti 'MPG2' stance), and move to MPG4 based compression, which even though it is still Long GOP, isn't MPG2....
 
MPEG2 is sooooo old technology. Higher compression but far more efficient. And MPEG 4 is the basis for HD broadcasts and web based applications as well as Panasonic AVC-INTRA at 100Mbps for full 1920x1080p recordings. MPEG2 was great for DVD's though. I even remember that sony had two other MPEG formats , SX and IMX, which did not do particularly well. Let's hope they do better with XDCAM EX.
 
Yes, that and I think the 170 as well.

I don't really have a problem with the concept of MPG4 given enough bit rate, the real problem with it is the horendous processing requirements for encoding it with any decent quality. Decoding it pretty bad too which makes NLE real time performance near impossible...

The AVC-INTRA is really something different again, being intra frame not interframe, but MPG2 also has I Frame only yet as convergent design has show, MPG2 Long GOP at 100Mbps provides better quality than I Frame at 160Mbps so 100Mbps could be used much more wisely than with AVC-Intra... I know someone with the Panasonic 3000, he has to shoot in DVCPro HD because NLE support for AVC-Intra just isn't there...
 
Grassvalley Edius. AVC-INTRA and all the others supported. MPEG4 at 160Mbps is good enough to transport Ultra HD which is essentially 16 times HD. EBU has shown comparitive compression at various bit rates using the same material. H264 holds out at down to 12Mbps.
Why is H264 used for HD transmission? I've been using AVC-INTRA and Edius since the option became available for the HPX2100. Same workflow,
 
I thought HDCAM EX was MPEG4?

It will be interesting to see if JVC will release a SxS based HD110 camera. That would be cool and they could make it full HD finally. This could give the EX3 a run for it's money. It's about time the HD110 is updated anyways.
 
AJ101 said:
Grassvalley Edius. AVC-INTRA and all the others supported. MPEG4 at 160Mbps is good enough to transport Ultra HD which is essentially 16 times HD. EBU has shown comparitive compression at various bit rates using the same material. H264 holds out at down to 12Mbps.
Why is H264 used for HD transmission? I've been using AVC-INTRA and Edius since the option became available for the HPX2100. Same workflow,
Click to expand...

He is a Premiere user and had no end of problems with that as well but this one would rather work in DVCPro HD than switch... He has had the 3000 for a while now (I;ve got a feeling he was the first in Australia to get one) and I think only just starting to be able to use it with INTRA but don't even quote me on that one....

As I said, I have little against MPG4 other than the rediculas processing load it requires for encoding (and in a lot of cases decoding). its the hyprocracy of bagging MPG2 long gop for so long then going MPG4 long gop that shines a very poor light on Panasonic and means you can't believe anything they claim as anything more than marketing...
 
Sttratos said:
I thought HDCAM EX was MPEG4?

It will be interesting to see if JVC will release a SxS based HD110 camera. That would be cool and they could make it full HD finally. This could give the EX3 a run for it's money. It's about time the HD110 is updated anyways.
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Its XDCAM EX and it is MPG2. Its just got a MPG4 wrapper around it. Sony claimed it would make it more compatible into the future but I don't personally understand the reasoning for adding the wrapper. Either way, the codec of the video is MPG2.

I agree, as far as I was concerned the JVC HD series lead the way for some time, but they have fallen too far behind. All they really need is an update to integrated SxS, a native 1920x1080 block and some decent bit rates.

The only negative is I can't see JVC going 1/2", I bet they stay 1/3" which would be a great shame... Maybe they will do both at different price points (ie bring out a HD5000 series).
 
AJ101 said:
http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/en/technology/AVC-Intra/avc_3_intra_technology.php
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1: That is INTRA, not traditional MPG4 as used in their new MPG4 handycams (HMC150 and HMC170).

2: MPG2 has loads more 'compression efficiency' over DVCProHD but they ignored that in their codec war of the time and focused on other marketing ploys (higher bit rates (which is of course needed for less efficient codecs) and colour space (which was and still is upressed from low res sensors by most of the cameras anyway). So now when it suites them, they market heavily over and over the exact thing (compression efficiency) they completely ignored when it was at their dissadvantage (DVCPro HD vs MPG2 LONG GOP).

You can't believe anything Panasonic claim in their marketing as they have shown themselves to just bend it their way too much... They seem too much like AMD, always trying to impress by direclty canning the opposition rather than just getting on with the job and letting the products sell themselves based on their own merits.
 
It is the HPX170 and it is not Long GOP.

The HMC150 is AVC-HD and is long GOP MPG4 and could be considered a replacement for the DVX as it is priced similarly.

The HPX170 is DVCPRO HD and is NOT long GOP. IT's the same as the HVX200(200a) and HPX500, etc.

AVC-HD is what Panny is putting in their HMC150 and lower end cam's. It is next gen and was joint developed by Panny and Sony. Every major camera manufacturer will be using it as next gen replacement for HDV. None of the P2 based cams are long GOP.

AVC-Intra is NOT long GOP and would be considered the next step in the evolution from Panny over DVCPRO HD.

Anyways, if you want to continue to discuss codecs and such as this, perhaps you can start a new thread out of respect for the o.p. and we can get this one back on topic.

Thanks :)

later,
Jason
 
Jason Ramsey said:
It is the HPX170 and it is not Long GOP.

The HMC150 is AVC-HD and is long GOP MPG4 and could be considered a replacement for the DVX as it is priced similarly.

The HPX170 is DVCPRO HD and is NOT long GOP. IT's the same as the HVX200(200a) and HPX500, etc.
Click to expand...

I am not talking about the HPX170, I am talking about the HMC170 as I have said before. See the first post from the this and note the first 'update':
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-Aims-for-an-AVCHD-Future-with-AG-HMC150-34499.htm#

Or is that a typo on their part?

Jason Ramsey said:
AVC-HD is what Panny is putting in their HMC150 and lower end cam's. It is next gen and was joint developed by Panny and Sony. Every major camera manufacturer will be using it as next gen replacement for HDV. None of the P2 based cams are long GOP.
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Yes, but you can almost guarrantee that this will creep up the line for Panasonic. Sony don't need it happily using MPG2 with modest CPU requirements for encoding and decoding. In the future I am sure Sony will use it in higher end models too but they don't need to now. For Panasonic, DVCProHD is a problem and needs to go because of high data rates (poor economy for P2) and low reslolution (ie no full raster 1920x1080 ability).

Jason Ramsey said:
AVC-Intra is NOT long GOP .
Click to expand...
Ahh, yea, I know, I said that 8 posts ago
http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1402764&postcount=9

Jason Ramsey said:
and would be considered the next step in the evolution from Panny over DVCPRO HD.

Anyways, if you want to continue to discuss codecs and such as this, perhaps you can start a new thread out of respect for the o.p. and we can get this one back on topic.
...
Click to expand...

It is much more a discussion of getting your head around the marketing rubbish and understanding the underlying realities. Interesting to note however, it was your post which took the Panasonic LONG GOP direction yet now you want to 'get this one back on topic'...
 
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Interesting to note however, it was your post which took the Panasonic LONG GOP direction yet now you want to 'get this one back on topic'...
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And interesting to note your unnecessary sarcasm....

I find it quite amusing however, that you project AVC -HD trickling up the panny cam ladder ;) - Panny simply knows its customers, in this case making the hmc150 and its work flow an affordable replacement for the DVX line. Its fully aware that the intraframe codec quality of hd dvc pro are a big selling point over long gop for most of its cams.
 
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lawriejaffa said:
And interesting to note your unnecessary sarcasm....

I find it quite amusing however, that you project AVC -HD trickling up the panny cam ladder ;)
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1: Sarcastic? yes, so would you be if you were the one made to appear like it was you who took the discussion off track by the very person who actually did it.

2: So you don't think Panasonic will start offering AVC-HD in any cameras at a level higher than this 150 then? and you think they will continue to claim DVCPro HD is the way to go, even with the implementation of options such as 50MBps 4:2:2 1920x1080 MPG2 which comes very close to uncompressed (see Convergent Designs samples) by the competition.

The INTRA frame verse INTER frame debate is old and useless, intrerframe editing is as easy as intra frame for some time now and the compression efficiency it provides only benefits users when properly implemented. Only Panasonic keep on about it as it is the only thing they have left in the marketing bag for DVCPro HD.
 
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