JVC or HVX - help me decide!

Horse.. brings up a huge point of view which is the buy in industry that the HVX has over any other camera. Filmmakers are using it, major advertising agencies, and feature film directors. There's a broad based industry buy-in and that's creating a community. I've already done a couple of gigs on other people's/rented P2 cameras. It's nice to know one and be able to get a job as an operator.


I also shot with the JVC and was not impressed with the image... the noise.. and ultimately getting away from the horrors of tape-based editing is too much for me to not consider...

The HVX was the choice for me... Now, if I were shooting a reality TV show.. or some talking heads or weddings where tons of content is required.. I'd look towards other stuff..


That new Canon on Sony look interestting...
 
Barry_Green said:
Horseface, that post was brilliant end-to-end. I am in complete agreement on every point (except perhaps the laziness part).

1) if the footage looks better to you, then it looks better, regardless of what the numbers say. I'm always puzzled by those who insist that the numbers, in and of themselves, are a determining factor. Heck, if pixel count is the most important thing, why get a JVC? Why not get a Canon instead? The determining factor is whether you like the look of the footage.

2) Exactly. Solid state has displaced tape in many recording mediums, and video acquisition is about the last bastion tape still has a hold on. Sure it's a bit inconvenient for us in the early days with the small cards, but card capacities will grow and get cheaper. Not a doubt in my mind that solid state is all anyone's going to be using 10 years from now, and once AVC-HD hits in full force on the consumer side we're going to see a very rapid migration away from tape.

3) Nothing anywhere near this price range does that, no.

4) I've seen good example footage, but when it comes to actually being used in professional production environments and by high-profile users and on television shows, the HVX has a massive lead. Heck, Panavision just bought $2 million worth of Panasonic HD gear, so you'll be able to rent HVXs from Panavision. I don't see any HDV gear being offered by Panavision.

5) Yes, I much prefer the look & shape of the JVC. Small handheld form factor has its place, but the HVX is a bit too big to be a small handheld camera; as long as it's going to be that big it might as well inherit the JVC's ergonomics...

And finally, 6) "If I can't do something good with what I have, why should I even bother at all?" Brilliant. We're now at the point where all these tools are adequate to the task. It's not a case of interlaced-only 60i standard-def 4:3 video cameras anymore; heck, even Sony's finally offering 24P! And Canon's 24F is plenty fine. They all can do amazingly well.

So just pick the one that suits your style the best.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Barry!

I guess 'laziness' isn't really what prevents me from doing things, but if the workflow is smoother/quicker, I'm a much happier bunny. I'm extremely new to film making, coming at it from a Pro Audio and Art and Design background. Pro Audio made the transition to solid state field recording fairly recently and due to the simple convenience of the thing, I go out and record a lot, where as before I thought twice before doing it.

Also, I guess we're dealing with MASSIVE amounts of data now. Can oxide coated plastic still REALLY cut it? Can we really trust it with our work?

P2 cards can only get cheaper and cheaper. Do we know if Panasonic holds this medium exclusively, or will 3rd party ram manufacturers start offering less expensive options soon? Do any other devices use this format? Perhaps that is the key that will determine other companies taking interest?

The form factor is a puzzle to me. The HVX is like a palmcorder for giants!

:-Laugh(DBG)-1

But, no real worries for me considering that it's going to live on a Tripod 90% of the time. However, it is actually nice having something that you can sling around a little if you want to.

And like everybody else, looking forward to your Book!

:beer:
 
Adam Grunseth said:
I am looking to purchase a new camera and would like to expand into HD territory. I think I have narrowed my decision down to the JVC with 80 gig hd recorder, or the HVX. Both cameras have features that are very appealing to me, and there are also things that I don't care for with both cameras. For tax purposes I need to make the purchase before the end of the year.... please help me decide.
Click to expand...
Adam, what did you do? I have the same problem...
I don´t know which one is the best camera.

Thanks
G
 
Geyka Urdaneta said:
[...] I have the same problem... I don´t know which one is the best camera [...]
Click to expand...
The cameras are so different, there really is no "best" as what is best for you depends on a combination of personal preference and the type of work you are trying to do. What are your priorities, especially in light of posts #7 , #18 , and #20 ?

Nothing beats having the opportunity to shoot with the camera. I have always favored the HVX personally, even though I had worked with both cameras, but one day this summer a client asked me to do an all day shoot with the JVC and my opinion of it changed dramatically. I could not have shot solo-lobo using P2 cards or a hard drive. I was doing the kind of shooting that works best with a shoulder-mounted camera and recording on good old-fashioned tape. I like both cameras, I favor the HVX and P2 workflow in many respects, but I see them with different tools with different design priorities and capabilities.
 
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Exactly. They're very different tools, and each is suited to doing what the other one doesn't. So find which one suits your needs best. The choice between these two should be very easy, rather than difficult!
 
I'd go with the HVX200 unless you really want interchangible lenses. The higher color depth, P2 recording, DVCProHD, Variable frame-rates, and wealth of recording options (Mini-DV, 480 DVCPr050, 720p, 1080i) all make the HVX200 the more versital tool. If you want something better in low light and that "video" look then go with the Sony FX1 or Z1. If you want another HDV camera for the "film-look" then go with the Canon A1 as it's cheaper, sharper, and has more image controls. The HD100 was a great camera upon release but, now that the HVX200 and A1 are out, I think it's lost its niche.
 
my school got a pair of JVC cams instead of the HVXs. They said the leica zoom lens just doesn't cut the mustard. I've shot with both now, and it's hard to say because production value/lighting has changed from shoot to shoot, but the JVC image quality looked better to me. But the design/menus are terrible compared to the HVX, and p2 is greatly missed on the JVCS. So neither is perfect, but I don't think there's a clear victor.
 
Adam,
I had the HVX for commercial work I was doing, then shot a film in Brasil this past summer with the HD100. After my experience with the HD100, I couldn't go back to my HVX when I got back, just kept thinking about the HD100. So I sold my HVX, bought the HD110 with a petroff mattebox, and absolutely love it.
I would also like to state that I am endorsed by neither product. Just an independent, free-thinking lover of cinematography.

Given that you are posting this question concerning these cameras on dvxuser, you will generally get responses that favor the panny cam. Since I have experience with both, I can hopefully offer some more advice. To whoever stated the JVC HD100 is not a profesional camera once you get past its looks, and only a pro-sumer cam, needs to experience the HD100 more.
First, it is true that the HVX is an amazing camera, impressive image quality, and I love the P2 workflow. The HVX made me shoot more efficiently, and the workflow felt like shooting film. Even though these are the reasons why I initially got the HVX, there were some serious thrones on the camera, that burred under-my-skin, and added to my frustrations with the HVX.

1. The HVX body design. The oversized DVX style camera design seems to be in a weird grey area, not quite small enough to be a small handheld cam, while at the same time, not being big enough to be a shoulder camera, or something that feels stable when going handheld. This makes the camera very awkward to hold, and has unstability in your hands, it tends to want to lean toward one side. It even felt awkward on my sticks, I like to grip the camera on my tripod and make some of my movements, but the HVX was not made for that.

Also, since this camera is in this 'grey' area of design, it makes adding any external components even more awkward, there is simply no place to stick anything. I already have a complete Anton Bauer battery set-up, no place to attach the Adapter, you have to wear a belt. And then there is my 7 inch monitor, mattebox, wireless mics transmitter, etc. There is no place to fit it all, unless you add a rail system to the cam. But all of these components together are more weight and get sizably bigger then the camera itself.

2. The control placements on the HVX need to be improved. These were some of the most annoying thorns. I or anyone else like a first AC, would constantly push buttons by mistake simply because of their placement. My iris would always get hit, blowing up my shot, or some other random button would be hit. I don't know why the iris is placed on the side of the cam with the wheel sticking out of the cam! To whoever posted the JVC Menu system is worse then the HVX, I think the HVX menu navigation system is counter-intuitive, and you have to operate it with your wrist bent around the top of camera, giving you that syndrome. And forget operating it with any gloves or anything on your hands. You have to push and poke theses little buttons down to navigate through the entire menu. I felt like I could operate and change menu functions on the JVC, much more quickly, efficently and on the fly.

I love the JVC HD menu system, right where it should be, and quick to access.

2b. Also, the Focus-Assist system on the HVX is pathetic. It simply zooms in a portion of the image to get your focus, but I could never rely on this for accuracy. Especially in low light, it would be impossible to see if your were in focus. The Focus read-out in the camera was also off of it's mark. I ended up always using a tape measure to get my focus marks. There is also no way to mark focus on the Camera. I can't imagine getting accurate focus racks without investing in a whole focus-pulling system for the HVX.

On the HD110, I love the edge highlight Focus Assist function. Also the direct focus measurments on the lens, are they way it should be, real lens markings, making it much easier to rack focus.

3. The lens, well maybe this is the most annoying bug on the HVX. The manual zoom ring on the camera always bumps when you enter your zoom, jolting the image, it does not have a smooth start. So then I had to mainly use the Zoom motor, but the zoom is way too much of a general movement, it starts too quick, but then the eases into a zoom that is too slow, not letting you do a quicker zoom or a whip zoom.

The JVC has a completely manual real zoom. Even the Manual zoom has the perfect amount of resistance your zoom starts as smooth as butter. And of course it is a real lens, ahhh, just like operating a real camera. Nothing compares to that!

4. Lastly the image. When I was shooting with my HVX, my clients and fellow filmmaking friends thought the imagery I was getting from the HVX was very impressive. Then, I got back from shooting in Brasil with the HD100.

When I started to show people some of the shots, they couldn't believe the image quality. People thought I was sooting with a 2/3" inch HD Broadcast camera or on super 35mm film. Even people who are not in the industry said they never saw that kind of quality before. The color and sharpness were on a different level then what I was getting with the HVX. And that was before I really started getting into the color controls on the HD100.

To be honest, it was incredibly frustrating when we got back from Brasil to deal with the editing workflow from the HD100. There was no real support, and we were hearing contradictory ways to edit it. The 3rd party plug-ins were awful. We eventually got a Kona HD card, transferred the footage out of the HDV codec into an intermediate codec, and it was all honey pots since then. But of course, now apple has support for the HD100.

And, one more thing that did bug me on the JVC was some elements of the lens. The lens did not get wide enough for my taste. I really like the wideness of the HVX. Also, a purple fringing would happen on high contrast shots. The lens would also tend to breathe a lot. But there were all something I learned to deal with, and just ended up using an old wide-angle converter that I had. There is the 9k lens that I hear is vey good, and is the lens to use.

Granted the lens that JVC includes with the HD100 is a giveaway, an entry-level lens. And now JVC is coming out with lens adapters to use film and broadcasts lenses.


And when you get the Firestore drive, you have direct-to-edit, tapeless workflow just like the HVX P2 system. You can, and should shoot tapeless with the HD100. So it is future proof. I just avoid the HDV codec and convert it to DVCPRO HD or Apple Intermediate.


So in conclusion, the way the HD110 feels, operated and image quality seem to be a giveaway given the price. As stated numerous times on this board, both cameras have their pluses and minuses, and this is my two or four cents worth. Feels good to get that off of my chest.
Good luck!
-Benjamin


ps. We are still in the middle of editing our film shot in Brasil, called 'Fly Away Beetle'. I will let the board know more info when it is complete. It is exciting.
 
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DerrickTempleton said:
my school got a pair of JVC cams instead of the HVXs. They said the leica zoom lens just doesn't cut the mustard. I've shot with both now, and it's hard to say because production value/lighting has changed from shoot to shoot, but the JVC image quality looked better to me. But the design/menus are terrible compared to the HVX, and p2 is greatly missed on the JVCS. So neither is perfect, but I don't think there's a clear victor.
Click to expand...

Wow they felt the HVX lens didint "cut the mustard".... thy must LOVE purple edges.
 
I also researched this same question and the DVX had already proven itself in
the market so that's why I went that route, now I am a HVX user.
 
For my work I used to be in IT, and I am fairly self-contained in terms of equipment. So the P2 workflow doesn't really scare me, it actually feels better than 'capturing'. However, an in-camera harddrive seems even better than that.

Two - admittedly very different - things that are still keeping me on the fence for this camera:
1) Will Panasonic come out with a HVX-250 that has a harddrive built-in?
2) While I know I can use this camera for serious work (will mainly film theater and therefore need good color sampling etc.) - can I also use it on 'auto' and still shoot acceptable footage? In other words, can I use this semi-pro camera to shoot a clip of my kid playing, with only available light?

Grtz,
Freezo
 
Freezo said:
1) Will Panasonic come out with a HVX-250 that has a harddrive built-in?
Click to expand...
Nope. Panasonic rejected hard drives as acqusition media. You can get external hard drive recorders like the FireStore or upcoming CinePorter, but Panasonic isn't likely to ever put a hard drive in a camera.

2) While I know I can use this camera for serious work (will mainly film theater and therefore need good color sampling etc.) - can I also use it on 'auto' and still shoot acceptable footage? In other words, can I use this semi-pro camera to shoot a clip of my kid playing, with only available light?
Click to expand...
It does have a fully-auto switch.
 
I had the same doubts at first.
Did my research, travelled to NYC, went to B&H Photo tried them both, got the HVX.
Reasons:
HD lens (JVC is an SD, although interchangeable still SD), great color sampling (4:2:2 vs 4:2:1) and specially better post.
Rendering time with HDV can be really time demanding compared to the DVCPro and also it works great with FCP latest versions, specially designed for it. The con is that is more expensive because of the P2 cards or the external Hard Drive. I bought the FS-100 and although not cheap, really happy with both. You cant expect to have real HD in Mini Dv....please!
 
DP StrangeLove said:
Adam,
I had the HVX for commercial work I was doing, then shot a film in Brasil this past summer with the HD100. After my experience with the HD100, I couldn't go back to my HVX when I got back, just kept thinking about the HD100. So I sold my HVX, bought the HD110 with a petroff mattebox, and absolutely love it.
I would also like to state that I am endorsed by neither product. Just an independent, free-thinking lover of cinematography.

Given that you are posting this question concerning these cameras on dvxuser, you will generally get responses that favor the panny cam. Since I have experience with both, I can hopefully offer some more advice. To whoever stated the JVC HD100 is not a profesional camera once you get past its looks, and only a pro-sumer cam, needs to experience the HD100 more.
First, it is true that the HVX is an amazing camera, impressive image quality, and I love the P2 workflow. The HVX made me shoot more efficiently, and the workflow felt like shooting film. Even though these are the reasons why I initially got the HVX, there were some serious thrones on the camera, that burred under-my-skin, and added to my frustrations with the HVX.

1. The HVX body design. The oversized DVX style camera design seems to be in a weird grey area, not quite small enough to be a small handheld cam, while at the same time, not being big enough to be a shoulder camera, or something that feels stable when going handheld. This makes the camera very awkward to hold, and has unstability in your hands, it tends to want to lean toward one side. It even felt awkward on my sticks, I like to grip the camera on my tripod and make some of my movements, but the HVX was not made for that.

Also, since this camera is in this 'grey' area of design, it makes adding any external components even more awkward, there is simply no place to stick anything. I already have a complete Anton Bauer battery set-up, no place to attach the Adapter, you have to wear a belt. And then there is my 7 inch monitor, mattebox, wireless mics transmitter, etc. There is no place to fit it all, unless you add a rail system to the cam. But all of these components together are more weight and get sizably bigger then the camera itself.

2. The control placements on the HVX need to be improved. These were some of the most annoying thorns. I or anyone else like a first AC, would constantly push buttons by mistake simply because of their placement. My iris would always get hit, blowing up my shot, or some other random button would be hit. I don't know why the iris is placed on the side of the cam with the wheel sticking out of the cam! To whoever posted the JVC Menu system is worse then the HVX, I think the HVX menu navigation system is counter-intuitive, and you have to operate it with your wrist bent around the top of camera, giving you that syndrome. And forget operating it with any gloves or anything on your hands. You have to push and poke theses little buttons down to navigate through the entire menu. I felt like I could operate and change menu functions on the JVC, much more quickly, efficently and on the fly.

I love the JVC HD menu system, right where it should be, and quick to access.

2b. Also, the Focus-Assist system on the HVX is pathetic. It simply zooms in a portion of the image to get your focus, but I could never rely on this for accuracy. Especially in low light, it would be impossible to see if your were in focus. The Focus read-out in the camera was also off of it's mark. I ended up always using a tape measure to get my focus marks. There is also no way to mark focus on the Camera. I can't imagine getting accurate focus racks without investing in a whole focus-pulling system for the HVX.

On the HD110, I love the edge highlight Focus Assist function. Also the direct focus measurments on the lens, are they way it should be, real lens markings, making it much easier to rack focus.

3. The lens, well maybe this is the most annoying bug on the HVX. The manual zoom ring on the camera always bumps when you enter your zoom, jolting the image, it does not have a smooth start. So then I had to mainly use the Zoom motor, but the zoom is way too much of a general movement, it starts too quick, but then the eases into a zoom that is too slow, not letting you do a quicker zoom or a whip zoom.

The JVC has a completely manual real zoom. Even the Manual zoom has the perfect amount of resistance your zoom starts as smooth as butter. And of course it is a real lens, ahhh, just like operating a real camera. Nothing compares to that!

4. Lastly the image. When I was shooting with my HVX, my clients and fellow filmmaking friends thought the imagery I was getting from the HVX was very impressive. Then, I got back from shooting in Brasil with the HD100.

When I started to show people some of the shots, they couldn't believe the image quality. People thought I was sooting with a 2/3" inch HD Broadcast camera or on super 35mm film. Even people who are not in the industry said they never saw that kind of quality before. The color and sharpness were on a different level then what I was getting with the HVX. And that was before I really started getting into the color controls on the HD100.

To be honest, it was incredibly frustrating when we got back from Brasil to deal with the editing workflow from the HD100. There was no real support, and we were hearing contradictory ways to edit it. The 3rd party plug-ins were awful. We eventually got a Kona HD card, transferred the footage out of the HDV codec into an intermediate codec, and it was all honey pots since then. But of course, now apple has support for the HD100.

And, one more thing that did bug me on the JVC was some elements of the lens. The lens did not get wide enough for my taste. I really like the wideness of the HVX. Also, a purple fringing would happen on high contrast shots. The lens would also tend to breathe a lot. But there were all something I learned to deal with, and just ended up using an old wide-angle converter that I had. There is the 9k lens that I hear is vey good, and is the lens to use.

Granted the lens that JVC includes with the HD100 is a giveaway, an entry-level lens. And now JVC is coming out with lens adapters to use film and broadcasts lenses.


And when you get the Firestore drive, you have direct-to-edit, tapeless workflow just like the HVX P2 system. You can, and should shoot tapeless with the HD100. So it is future proof. I just avoid the HDV codec and convert it to DVCPRO HD or Apple Intermediate.


So in conclusion, the way the HD110 feels, operated and image quality seem to be a giveaway given the price. As stated numerous times on this board, both cameras have their pluses and minuses, and this is my two or four cents worth. Feels good to get that off of my chest.
Good luck!
-Benjamin


ps. We are still in the middle of editing our film shot in Brasil, called 'Fly Away Beetle'. I will let the board know more info when it is complete. It is exciting.
Click to expand...


So, there has been no response to any of this?!? Is this an HVX regime?
 
Do you really want someone to start arguing with you, rather than accept that your opinions and/or needs might be different from someone else's?
 
I think that this reaction is also 1 in a 100.. where 99 other people would probably go with the HVX.. but it is subjective. However, when looking at the industry buy in I wouldn't say that the JVC has anything but minor acceptance compared to the HVX.


I shot with the JVC twice now and was so equally unimpressed. Like having a foot back in the last century or something...
 
Thanks THoff

I was sitting here scratching my head on how to deal with the 'back to back' bumps and asked myself 'Is this guy just looking for a fight ?' :huh:

I am sure we all appreciate the detailed analysis of the 2 cameras in question but I personally found your reasons to be highly introspective. With all these tales of you grappling and bumping all of the HVX's button's and nob's in a desperate need to adjust focus or zoom in and manuever the camera on your 'sticks', I started visuallizing some man with 'Flipper's for hand's' out in the wild using the camera ...

To tell you the truth your comments seem agenda driven and full of hot air.

-

I had a chance to use an HVX for a small project and loved it. It surpassed my expectations and the workflow was really too simple.

I have not used the JVC but have seen some nice work from the camera.

-

I am not sure why you would ask if this was an HVX regime; it is not. It is a RED REGIME :evil:
 
"It is a RED regime"

Lol. Though, that depresses me, since I am two months in with my two HVX's.

Welcome back, John. You've gone into invisible mode I see.

This thread seems to have all the information one would need to make an informed decision. All you need to do now is make that decision based on your individual needs. Or just buy the brand that you favor, or don't buy the brand that you have some grudge against. Whatever your preference. The information has been laid out.

Jason
 
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