Justify an F35 vs an FS7

Viddovation said:
F35 Pros
- Mount designed for professional PL lenses, not requiring supports or rails for smaller lenses
- 3200k balanced CCD sensor for exceptional skintones
- global shutter
- 12.44 megapixel sensor (the FS7 is only 11.6 megapixel sensor) for exceptionally sharp 1080p
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Good points - although not deal killers and some I think are arguable. Personally if I had any lens on a camera that I felt was too heavy for a stills mount I would want to support it anyway. And if I was in a position to be able to spend £50,000 on a Optimo or something I wouldn't be looking at a £5,000 camera! Skintones...I think there's so much much you can do in grading so easily that you could make a green-skinned Martian look like someone with strongly suburnt red skin if you wanted to! Global shutter, yep, cool. Lots of pixels, yep, also good - but no-one who pays the bills is gonna be swayed by that I don't reckon.
Steve
 
JMtheDP said:
The FS7 will also be an "unproven" product for a little while, although I personally don't have much fear about a brand new Sony product
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It will also depreciate instantly and within 2 years possibly be worth about £10! The F35 etc. surely can't go much lower? The viewfinder that comes with the one I'm looking at costs £7,000 on its own (C30W) and fits many other Sony cameras so must be sellable on its own surely.
Steve
 
Expensive stuff can go low. Won't tell you what I sold my mf digital stills back (great images) for but beleive me any 1080 cam can go low!
 
steve phillipps said:
Good points - although not deal killers and some I think are arguable. Personally if I had any lens on a camera that I felt was too heavy for a stills mount I would want to support it anyway. And if I was in a position to be able to spend £50,000 on a Optimo or something I wouldn't be looking at a £5,000 camera! Skintones...I think there's so much much you can do in grading so easily that you could make a green-skinned Martian look like someone with strongly suburnt red skin if you wanted to! Global shutter, yep, cool. Lots of pixels, yep, also good - but no-one who pays the bills is gonna be swayed by that I don't reckon.
Steve
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I'm just providing factual content. If the F35 doesn't suit you or your clients, I assure you it's no skin off my back.

That said, spending $50k on glass and $5k on the camera sounds pretty prudent to me - all cameras depreciate because their specs become outdated, while good glass remains viable.

Also, in terms of camera depreciation, let me specifically point out the supply and demand issue. Right now it's nigh impossible to sell a loaded Sony PMW-F3 with CBK-RGB01 upgrade for $5k. Too much supply, too little demand, and on paper it's specs have all been superceded. It's a victim of it's own popularity. And technically, Sony is still selling new ones for $14k, although I have no idea who's buying them. I assure you, the same thing, in time will happen with the FS7. You're going to put $10k into the body, $2.5k into the prores back, $5k into the raw recorder, $2.5k into accessories, and you've got yourself a $20k camera that you'll have a hard time flipping for $5k come 2018. So make sure you can get $15k out of using it.
 
Viddovation said:
I'm just providing factual content. If the F35 doesn't suit you or your clients, I assure you it's no skin off my back.

That said, spending $50k on glass and $5k on the camera sounds pretty prudent to me - all cameras depreciate because their specs become outdated, while good glass remains viable.

Also, in terms of camera depreciation, let me specifically point out the supply and demand issue. Right now it's nigh impossible to sell a loaded Sony PMW-F3 with CBK-RGB01 upgrade for $5k. Too much supply, too little demand, and on paper it's specs have all been superceded. It's a victim of it's own popularity. And technically, Sony is still selling new ones for $14k, although I have no idea who's buying them. I assure you, the same thing, in time will happen with the FS7. You're going to put $10k into the body, $2.5k into the prores back, $5k into the raw recorder, $2.5k into accessories, and you've got yourself a $20k camera that you'll have a hard time flipping for $5k come 2018. So make sure you can get $15k out of using it.
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Maybe you took my reply the wrong way - I wasn't being dismissive, I appreciated and agreed with it. Just thinking and debating out loud really.

And you're right about depreciation - in fact even see the tape Varicam still listed for as available for sale for about £40,000! Can't shift a used one for £500 now!

Steve
 
You think depreciation on video cameras is bad? I'm selling an ARRI 535B package for £5,000. It comes with £80,000 worth of magazines....
 
And rather than trying to justify it to myself I'm just raising it as a discussion point really. Too late for me as I've already had it for a while now! Haven't got support plate rigged up yet for the long lens but will post pics once I do :happy:

SteveConwy-20140822-01399.jpg
 
Viddovation said:
I want to learn film. But the processing costs are insane.
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Yeah I looked into it too. I started out on film and shot nothing else for first 4 years and then everything turned video!

With Super 16 not even being considered HD (debatable for sure but there we are) only 35mm would make sense to shoot these days. It's big, it's expensive, it's only really worth about a minute's thought before you realise that it's a stupid (but lovely!) idea! Can't remember what I worked it out as, but is it something like £1,000 for 10 minutes of stock and processing?

Steve
 
steve phillipps said:
Yeah I looked into it too. I started out on film and shot nothing else for first 4 years and then everything turned video!

With Super 16 not even being considered HD (debatable for sure but there we are) only 35mm would make sense to shoot these days. It's big, it's expensive, it's only really worth about a minute's thought before you realise that it's a stupid (but lovely!) idea! Can't remember what I worked it out as, but is it something like £1,000 for 10 minutes of stock and processing?

Steve
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Well, S16 would be fine for learning. If you don't already have the background you need to do training before you try to get paying clients. And S16 would be fine for that. Lower costs. Even so, expensive.
 
Well you can certainly pick up the gear for next to nothing. And if you hunt around you may be able to find old stock and short ends. Still processing is gonna cost a bit. Back in the days when I was shooting Super 16 I think it was about 20p / foot to develop and 1 light transfer to tape? Don't remember the exact figures cos it wasn't me paying! But you've got to reckon stock and process at around £50 a minute I'd say, probably more.

Steve
 
I do remember well into video days opping on a drama short for a friend who just wanted to shoot it on film for the thrill of it as he'd never used it before - and we all loved it - the shooting and the finished look, it is a cool thing for sure.
Steve
 
I just shot a short film on 4-perf 35mm, paid about £450 for two rolls (1000') of 35mm, with processing. Pretty good value tbh.

We shot a short with 1550' of film. Okay, expensive, and that's not a lot of film, but the money we spent on processing would maybe have paid for an ALEXA Studio kit? And nobody would have been excited about shooting on ALEXA.

I suppose trying to support the F35 in the face of the A7S is not entirely dissimilar to trying to support 35mm when there is an F35/F65. A lot of the argument cannot be explained in pure numbers...
 
steve phillipps said:
Yeah that's what I was gonna say when you said that the F5 doesn't do great 1080 - I'm sure you're right, even with the 2k OLPF - but yeah downsampled from 4k tends to yield a very good HD image doesn't it.
No doubt about it, the FS7 is a very appealing bit of kit, and with body only £5,599...hard to argue with that.
Steve
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Steve were did you see the body for only $5,599?
£5,599 sorry about the dollar sign. At the current exchange rate that does not seem like such a great deal compared to $7,999 at B&H body only. I'm sure the price will change anyway as soon as the camera is released.
 
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