Just got a new camera - Sony F35

[jo kami]

Hi Chris,

Looks like the F35 bug has bit you as well!

For your situation, I would suggest the FS7. The F35 is much more on the same tier as a 35mm film camera, and is challenging for run and gun work if you don't have any assistants.
You're going to need to light meter for everything (S-log is deceiving), use IRND's, switch lenses on the fly (Do you have PL Glass? if not, get a nikon mod), switch out v-locks/AB batteries every few hours, and if you want GOOD sound, I would highly recommend hiring a sound guy.

That's not to say it's impossible for one person, but you're going to be slooow, and tired. An average F35 rig is 23-26 lbs.

I would sacrifice IQ for mobility. In the end, your audience won't care how it looks. An important piece of storytelling that could have been missed would be much more devastating than a "cmos video-y look" that only a select few can tell the difference

 

[leteeci]

Aja CION vs F35 ??

 

[steve phillipps]

For your situation, I would suggest the FS7.

Me too, no question.

Steve

 

[steve phillipps]

Aja CION vs F35 ??

I think same as vs virtually any other modern vs the "old" F35 really - on paper the CION will blast the F35 into space, but there's more to it than the numbers as we know. I think the spec is similar in many ways to the FS7 that we discuss in the FS& vs F35 thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328781-Justify-an-F35-vs-an-FS7, so that's:

Pros

Smaller
Lighter
Less power draw
Easy to adapt lens mount for more / cheaper lens options
Higher frame rates at HD (180fps vs 60fps)
Higher dynamic range (on paper at least)
4k up to 60fps
1 year warranty
Built in NDs
Better in low light


Cons

Rolling shutter (although no bad reports from tests as yet)
Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......

Steve

 

[steve phillipps]

...though actually the CION loses some of those pros I think - it's PL only and does not have NDs?

Steve

 

[leteeci]

for feature movie? F35 with PIX 240i or CION ?

It have global shutter, so no rolling shutter.. HD or 4K for delivery?

 

[SJX]

Aja CION vs F35 ??

Don't spoil awesome thread with this stuff. Make your own thread.

F35 vs cion is same as f35 vs fs7. This post say all:

Here’s my take on the comparative list between an F35 and an FS7.

I agree there should be objective means to measure image quality, otherwise we can quickly fall into the audiophile trap of
attributing emotional feelings to ephemeral qualities. But it’s helpful to realize that CMOS and CCD chips are still inherently analog devices.
Chip technologies have their pros and cons, some are more sensitive others more subtle.

Please take this apple-to-pear-comparison with a grain of salt.

1-Resolution
The F35 yields over sampled 1080p signal, from a striped CCD sensor.
12441600 active pixels (x6 times oversampling of HD resolution~2,073,600 pixels)
5760 Horizontal resolution: 1920 red sub pixels , 1920 green sub pixels, 1920 blue sub pixels.
2160 Vertical resolution: 2160 red sub pixels, 2160 green sub pixels, 2160 blue sub pixels.
Each pixel generated, is summed from 6 sub pixels of full RGB data at 14 bits.
(3 times horizontal resolution oversampling, 2 times vertical resolution oversampling to yield 1920 x 1080p)

FS7 is a Bayer CMOS sensor, that outputs 4K raw and 1080p
11.6 pixels quoted, but seems more like 8.8k are active.
The press release doesn’t specify number of actual photo sites (maybe a purposeful marketing omission)
~4096 horizontal resolution: 2048 Green sub pixels, 2048 Blue sub pixels (assumes Bayer Pattern)
~2160 Vertical resolution: 2160 Green sub pixels, 2160 Red sub pixels (assumes Bayer Pattern)
1 pixel of RGB data is generated from 2 Green sub pixels, 1 blue sub pixel and, 1 red sub pixel.
Utilizes traditional 4:2:2 sampling sampling scheme to capture interpolated color for ‘4K’ or 1920x1080p

Each chip is designed with a purpose built low pass filter that when combined with a lens determines the ultimate real world resolution.
In terms of luminance resolution both cameras are comparable in resolution, but color resolution is often forgotten in the world of 4K, the F35 beats it hands down (It’s sampling more real color data)

2. Sharpness
Is a combination of many factors…
Density of CMOS or CCD chip, quality of debayer or processing + low pass filter + Lens + recording encoding method log 4:4:4 vs. raw 4:2:2
FS7 claims 11.7 million (not sure how many are active)
F35 has 12.4 million
I would expect the F35, to be slightly sharper if we had access to the raw data.
But with cameras outputs we downscaled to 1080p, sharpness will be pretty close to equal

3. Dynamic range
F35 - at native ISO 450, 12 stops (11.3 per Zacuto test), good highlight sensitivity (with seemingly more stops devoted to highlights like film)
FS7 - at native ISO 2000, (14 stops according to manufacturer), stops above and below middle grey still TBD
I wonder if the high ISO of the FS7 will affect highlight sensitivity above middle grey in favor of a lower noise floor.

4 - Color
F35 - True RGB 4:4:4 @ 1920x1080. 14 bit AD to 12bit conversion. Tungsten balanced chip (3200k)
FS7- 4:2:2 @ ‘4K’. RAW. Daylight balanced chip.

Most Bayer chips still rely on the brute force method of adding more sub pixels to interpolate color.
So as cameras increase in resolution, they will be able to extract more color from larger arrays of 4:2:2.
What the F35 misses in resolution and sharpness, it more than makes up for by capturing subtle color hues and natural grain
by utilizing a very efficient RGB stripe method processed in-camera.

5. Noise
Both cameras would need to be tested at similar ISO to properly evaluate.
F35 - Will naturally be noisier due to base ISO 450, but sampled information/noise represents real, not interpolated RGB data (so noise looks better.)
FS7 - The base ISO of 2000 equals more sensitivity, and less noise.
I tend to light everything to ISO 450 anyway, high ISOs tend to lose the ‘movie look’ for some reason.
Note, most movies shot on film the past 25 years never exceeded ISO 500 film stock (I like lighting to that look)

6. Noise Pattern
F35 - Will exhibit a ‘better’ more random noise (based on full RGB 4:4:4 data for each pixel generated)
FS7 - Noise will have more of a repetitive/patterned feel (based on 4:2:2 data for each pixel generated)
The lack of patterned noise in the F35 is probably the filmic quality that folks talk about.

7. Artifacts
F35 - CCD smear (vertical streaking), minimal color aliasing on any color channels, minimal moire.
FS7 - Rolling Shutter, color aliasing due to interpolated data, more moire due to 4:2:2 sampling method.
F35 does not exhibit motion artifacts, but prone to streak if sensor is oversaturated with light. FS7 will still have some motion artifacts and potentially more moire.

8 - Post Image Flexibility
F35 - Good highlight latitude, similar to Alexa and Film, and great color overall. It gets skin tone right, because the chip is natively balanced for tungsten, this is still a rarity in the chip world, and the reason why the camera was probably so expensive to produce.
FS7 - CMOS chips are typically natively 5000k, which is why things may feel cold or less organic from the outset without extensive grading.
I assume this camera will have good low light sensitivity, reasonable sharpness, but weaker at capturing subtle colors and hues.

9 - Sensor Size
F35 - 23.62 x 13.28mm (diagonal 27.1mm)
Fs7 - S35mm CMOS - size ?

10 - High Speed
F35 - maxes out at 50 fps, built for high end traditional narrative workflow - well engineered 2007 Panavision/Sony tech, spared no expense in terms of technology implemented (250k original price)
FS7 - maxes out at 180fps/(240 fps w/add on), built for lower end Videographer market - 2014 technology to hit a specific marketing price point.
R&D/chip technology is now optimized and refined to hit specific price point/marketing segment.

This comparison is like a hammer and a mallet analogy.
Both device’s are good for hitting things. Each tool is better tailored for a specific use. Choose wisely.

 

[SJX]

I think same as vs virtually any other modern vs the "old" F35 really - on paper the CION will blast the F35 into space, but there's more to it than the numbers as we know. I think the spec is similar in many ways to the FS7 that we discuss in the FS& vs F35 thread http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328781-Justify-an-F35-vs-an-FS7, so that's:

Pros

Smaller
Lighter
Less power draw
Easy to adapt lens mount for more / cheaper lens options
Higher frame rates at HD (180fps vs 60fps)
Higher dynamic range (on paper at least)
4k up to 60fps
1 year warranty
Built in NDs
Better in low light


Cons

Rolling shutter (although no bad reports from tests as yet)
Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......

Steve

Steve you can be funny guy.

Pros

Higher dynamic range (on paper at least)

On paper they both SAME! 12 stops. But many say blackmagic 4k can't reach 12-stops and is same sensor. Macgregor says reality is F35 has more than 12 stops. But on paper is SAME! What you read?

Built in NDs

Cion has NDs?

etter in low light

Have you seen blackmagic 4k in low light? Not good. Cion iso400 F35 iso450 and looks better in low light.

Cons[

Rolling shutter (although no bad reports from tests as yet)
Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......

Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......not to roll my eyes. Cion is global shutter.

Other cons for you, sensor, bayer,color, construction, errrrrr....why I reply to these stupid topics...ummmmmm.

 

[Hunter Hampton]

Is alexa really cast IRON?

Yes but they made it out of cast iron so AC's could lick it to prevent anemia. Poor diets those guys...

 

[morgan_moore]

Cion

If the coin is the same as the bmc4k then it has way less DR than F3.

 

[steve phillipps]

Steve you can be funny guy.



On paper they both SAME! 12 stops. But many say blackmagic 4k can't reach 12-stops and is same sensor. Macgregor says reality is F35 has more than 12 stops. But on paper is SAME! What you read?





Cion has NDs?





Have you seen blackmagic 4k in low light? Not good. Cion iso400 F35 iso450 and looks better in low light.






Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......not to roll my eyes. Cion is global shutter.

Other cons for you, sensor, bayer,color, construction, errrrrr....why I reply to these stupid topics...ummmmmm.

I think your last point was the most relevant for sure - why bother replying dude?

Steve

 

[steve phillipps]

Errrr.........
Ummmmmm....
Struggling......

Just like the rest of my post this was me thinking out loud, I really was struggling to think of anything else ON PAPER to recommend the F35 over an FS7. No need for sarcasm. Or aggression. Or insults. You're right - it is indeed extremely stupid to bother replying to a stupid topic!

Steve

 

[leteeci]

it is not stupid..it is shared opinion from more experienced people.. that is forum all about..

 

[steve phillipps]

Thank you leteeci

 

[eddavid]

nothing is dumb - this is all exploration and discovery for everyone - sharing information like the good scientists we are. test out the cameras before you buy - compare them - and then see. or wait for people to do comparisons - to make sure you have what you want. this comes from a guy who rents a lot of cameras and owns a bunch too.

 

[yachacha]

https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/Cameras/CineProduction/DigitalMotionPictures/who_p.html

Might be an interesting person to talk to.

 

[mlysbakken]

A couple of stills from a shortfilm I shot and directed last weekend. I love how gradable the images from this camera are; it's really like painting with light.

The jpeg compression hasn't been good on these stills, but I thought I'd share anyway:





Regarding grading workflow: slog --> cineon, with a kodak LUT. I tried to use the Impulz luts, but they simply didn't cooperate with the footage - probably because it was deliberately underexposed.
Here's an ungraded still as well:

 

[kassim]

A couple of stills from a shortfilm I shot and directed last weekend. I love how gradable the images from this camera are; it's really like painting with light.

The jpeg compression hasn't been good on these stills, but I thought I'd share anyway:

View attachment 93879
View attachment 93880
View attachment 93881

Regarding grading workflow: slog --> cineon, with a kodak LUT. I tried to use the Impulz luts, but they simply didn't cooperate with the footage - probably because it was deliberately underexposed.
Here's an ungraded still as well:

View attachment 93882

Looks awesome...when will the short become available to watch?

 

[mlysbakken]

Within a couple of days, hopefully. It's a very "rapid fire" production, hehe

 

[M.R.]

Hi guys,

I'm looking for opinions on this:

18-50mm T3.0 RED ZOOM or SONY 1st gen 35 - 50 - 85 Prime set (the kit that could be bought with F3)

It would be my first PL mount lens / set and will stick with them for a while with Sony F35.
I can get both around the same price, the RED zoom being around 500 EUR cheaper than the Sony Prime set (2500).
Reason for considering the Red is the price and well sometimes you might need a wide. rogar-Shock(DBG):