Really? Because DNxHD records 16-235 or studio swing, while Prores is full swing at 0-255. Unless I misunderstood what you meant?
Just got a new camera - Sony F35
- Thread starter macgregor
- Start date
Really? Because DNxHD records 16-235 or studio swing, while Prores is full swing at 0-255. Unless I misunderstood what you meant?
macgregor
Veteran
No, it's actually the opposite.
Actually both codecs will record the full range, but Prores will ONLY show you the limited range, no matter if the signal was full range. However, with Davinci Resolve 9.0 you can manually set the QT prores files to use what they call "data values", which means you're telling the decoder that the footage is full range. So as long as you grade in resolve, you're safe now.
Actually both codecs will record the full range, but Prores will ONLY show you the limited range, no matter if the signal was full range. However, with Davinci Resolve 9.0 you can manually set the QT prores files to use what they call "data values", which means you're telling the decoder that the footage is full range. So as long as you grade in resolve, you're safe now.
I think skin tones are better in the ARRI. Just my opinion. It makes the most filmic images I ever seen from a digital camera. Even more filmic than the newer Alexa. Of course, very subjective.
The reason for not many films has everything to do with the business model ARRI chose for this camera and marketing and nothing to do with quality. The D20 for example was rental only. When D21 hit, the Genesis had a good hold already and not even the F35 has as many features. Actually the F35 has done more TV than theatrical and it was replaced by the F65 rather quickly, so it didn't have enough time either.
DR seems to be about on the same level. The F35 advantage is in sensitivity. But like I said, I would be willing to overlook that for Optical viewfinder + mechanical shutter + 4:3 sensor for anamorphic +2K.
Strange. There was a big thread at the cow concerning the Hyperdeck and DNxHD and it seems even blackmagic confirmed DNxHD was studio swing. But I can't find it at the moment.
macgregor
Veteran
mmmmm interesting...
as far as I know, with DNxHD you can tell the codec at the time of encoding that you are going to feed him with a full range or limited range signal.
Now, I work in PC, and my workflow is to edit and grade in Sony Vegas, or edit in Vegas and grade in Davinci.
When recording DNxHD files on the hyperdeck from the F35, the files look fine in Vegas. They are not clipped and they show the full range. So I can grade with no problems.
When grading those same files in Davinci, I have to tell Davinci that the DNxHD files are full range, otherwise Davinci interprets them as limited range (which is bad because you lose some DR in the highlights).
WHen doing the same workflow with prores files, I'm stucked with clipped highlights because QT decoder within Vegas decodes the prores files as limited range, therefore clipping the signal. The only way to fix this is grading those files in Davinci as I mentioned earlier, and telling Davinci to use the full range data.
as far as I know, with DNxHD you can tell the codec at the time of encoding that you are going to feed him with a full range or limited range signal.
Now, I work in PC, and my workflow is to edit and grade in Sony Vegas, or edit in Vegas and grade in Davinci.
When recording DNxHD files on the hyperdeck from the F35, the files look fine in Vegas. They are not clipped and they show the full range. So I can grade with no problems.
When grading those same files in Davinci, I have to tell Davinci that the DNxHD files are full range, otherwise Davinci interprets them as limited range (which is bad because you lose some DR in the highlights).
WHen doing the same workflow with prores files, I'm stucked with clipped highlights because QT decoder within Vegas decodes the prores files as limited range, therefore clipping the signal. The only way to fix this is grading those files in Davinci as I mentioned earlier, and telling Davinci to use the full range data.
I also have a Shuttle and record to DNxHD and grade in Resolve 9. How do you "tell" Resolve to use the full range data? Maybe I will see a difference. Thanks.
Thanks.
Mmmm, interesting. Doing that, right click in conform>clip attributes> data levels, makes the image flatter and shows more details in the highlights. I purposely chose a clip with grey overcast skies and after changing from auto to data levels I could see some clouds. But, bringing the highlights down to the same level while in auto produced the same results. So you don't seem to be losing any data. It's just the way Resolve interprets the footage. One you have to do it manually, the other Resolve does it for you. Interesting nonetheless.
Mmmm, interesting. Doing that, right click in conform>clip attributes> data levels, makes the image flatter and shows more details in the highlights. I purposely chose a clip with grey overcast skies and after changing from auto to data levels I could see some clouds. But, bringing the highlights down to the same level while in auto produced the same results. So you don't seem to be losing any data. It's just the way Resolve interprets the footage. One you have to do it manually, the other Resolve does it for you. Interesting nonetheless.
I'm not sure it was not full range. Like I said, I saw a difference when I clicked Data Levels. The image became flatter and I saw more details in the highlights. In Auto, the highlights were clipped in the waveform. Once I clicked Data Levels, the highlights went down in the waveform and fit inside and I saw clouds there weren't there when it was in Auto.
But then I clicked on Auto again to clip the highlights and then I manually brought them down looking at the waveform to about where they were in Data Level mode. I could at least visibly see the same clouds I could when I changed to Data Level. Does that make sense?
But then I clicked on Auto again to clip the highlights and then I manually brought them down looking at the waveform to about where they were in Data Level mode. I could at least visibly see the same clouds I could when I changed to Data Level. Does that make sense?
mlysbakken
Well-known member
The F35 acts quite like a classic film camera, so an incident meter is the way to go if you don't have a monitor with built-in waveform or histogram. Same goes for focus, as far as I know - either use a monitor with peaking or use the old-school string method.
macgregor
Veteran
Actually, in the EVF, you can switch to x2 and x4 times magnification. And also you can set up one zebra to mid grey and and another at 104% for clipping.
macgregor
Veteran
OK, now I understand you. Yes this is correct. You can recover the clipped data within Davinci resolve, and also in FCP/color. But you can't do that in Premiere, AE, Vegas etc... because the way QT decodes the footage in those programs.
Also there's the disadvantage of having to bring down the highlights for every single shot. WHy do that when you can set the levels to data levels and forget about the problem?
Another reason: I have a Slog LUT that expects full range data. If you apply it to limited range data, the footage does not look as intended, because the mid grey is mapped higher than it should.
So basically in my opinion, if you're supervising the post, you're fine using prores with full range cameras such as the F35, but if you're giving the shots to someone else, make sure you explain them the workflow with prores.
Sure. But nothing beats a waveform for digital acquisition. I would expect such a high-end camera as the F35 would have a waveform built in when lots of prosumer ones do. Adding an onboard monitor would just make the F35 even bigger than it already is. When trying to keep the size as compact as possible, any little thing adds up. But Mac's images look great. I have used the little sister, the F23 and it was also a pretty good camera. But it was a while ago.
So it does have focus expand, but it's a function of the viewfinder? Which one, the C30? By the way, does the F35 still keeps the standard Sony plug, meaning you could for example use an old F900 viewfinder with it too?
Zebras is better than nothing for exposure.
Sure. It's definitely easier than adjusting clip by clip. But you still have to right click clip by clip to change it to Data Level right? Or can you apply the setting globally? In any case it is a better workflow and I'm glad I found that out, thanks!
You mean use DNxHD with full range cameras? I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.
I choose to record DNxHD with the Shuttle over Prores because I'm PC based and DNxHD is technically superior to Prores, at least on paper, but definitely not inferior. I also use the Quicktime flavor of DNxHD. Have you tried the MXF flavor in the Shuttle?
macgregor
Veteran
Or can you apply the setting globally?
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change.
rogar-Happy(DBG):
I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.
Both record the full range, but Prores only SHOWS the limited range in the editing software. The data is there but "hidden". DNxHD is a bit more flexible in this, as it shows the full range in most applications.
Do you know what Arri did in the Alexa to avoid this issue when recording to prores? They just map the whole Arrilog into limited range when you switch the camera to record in the SXs cards. Sure you lose a bit of range in the 10bit, but that way they don't have to deal with the range issue in post and clients complaining.
I found however that the image quality shooting at 1080i50 and 1080i60 with the hyperdeck, is much worse with the avid codec than with prores. At least, I can see compression artifacts on the dnxhd footage compared with the prores file in After effects and Vegas.
This is tricky since different QT codecs decode differently depending on the application...
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change.
rogar-Happy(DBG):I thought you said Prores doesn't record full swing, just studio swing.
Both record the full range, but Prores only SHOWS the limited range in the editing software. The data is there but "hidden". DNxHD is a bit more flexible in this, as it shows the full range in most applications.
Do you know what Arri did in the Alexa to avoid this issue when recording to prores? They just map the whole Arrilog into limited range when you switch the camera to record in the SXs cards. Sure you lose a bit of range in the 10bit, but that way they don't have to deal with the range issue in post and clients complaining.
I found however that the image quality shooting at 1080i50 and 1080i60 with the hyperdeck, is much worse with the avid codec than with prores. At least, I can see compression artifacts on the dnxhd footage compared with the prores file in After effects and Vegas.
This is tricky since different QT codecs decode differently depending on the application...
macgregor
Veteran
Correct (to all of above).
You can also switch LUTs ON/OFF directly on the evf, so you can record Slog, but preview 709 on the EVF, and switch back and forth to check highlights for example.
Or can you apply the setting globally?
Yes you can, just select them all, and apply the change.
.
Aha! Of course. Thanks.
I never record interlaced with the shuttle. Only 24 frames progressive since the camera send 24psf out of the SDI.