Joker

I finally saw this film last night. There’s been so much controversy about this film, that I deliberately avoided it to gain some distance, and now the timing was right. After seeing it, I read this whole thread.

This film is hated or loved. I fall firmly within the camp of “LOVED IT!”. This is easily in the top 5 movies of the past few years, and along some axis - very important axis - it goes into my hall of fame along masterpieces like Taxi Driver.

I suppose before I focus on the flawless aspects, I should mention that it’s not a perfect movie and those imperfections are centered around the story, or as Batutta put it “the reach of this film exceeds its grasp” - I don’t think it quite manages to convince that the responsibilty for Joker’s mind rests completely on society… reality is too complicated for such easy diagnosis. In other words, it lacks subtlety. The plot is a bit Johnny One Note and the narrative is too straightforward in a cavalcade of one “hard done by” after another befalling Joker in a steady drumbeat with no variation. It’s a bit simplistic. That said, it’s not quite the pearl-clutching ‘collapse of culture and our way of life’ that Barry G. sees here (in my words). I’ll say more about this later.

But onto the masterpiece aspects. First and foremost the performances, specifically Joaquin Phoenix - absolutely riveting and some of the best acting onscreen of any era. Absolutely spectacular. I’m a big fan of the legendary performance of Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight, but this is on another level. This is such an over the top role, that it’s easy to play it too broadly and very, very, very difficult to make the character believable. Joaquin plumbs such depths of psychology in the Joker, is so convincing, that you cannot tear yourself away - a monumental achievement.

The second masterpiece aspect is one that is so rare nowadays, that just that rarity by itself is worthy of writing paens about. Many here have remarked upon the cinematography, which is indeed spectacular - but what absolutely blew me away, had me practically on my knees sobbing with gratitude was that rarest of directing skills these days… camera placement, framing, movement and blocking. This is so, so, so, so rarely done well. Here it is on such a high level, that I honestly cannot think off the top of my head of any movie that can match it in the last few decades - we’d have to go back to something like The Godfather. Look at the closeups on the Joker’s face - the angles picked and the way it’s framed (plus the lighting of course!), and really practically every shot in the film is spectacular without it feeling studied the way some of Hitchcock’s films can sometimes feel, where the camera is brilliantly deployed, but also done in a “look at me” way - here, the camera is invisible to the viewer, but yet so extraordinarily effective and done at the very edge of what’s possible. From this point of view, it is an absolutely stellar masterpiece, bar none.

I have often complained about camera placement, blocking and framing in films, where there simply is no skill displayed and in fact a kind of anti-skill, sloppy or pedestrian or dull, or clueless - see the Sicario thread where I dismantle Villaneuve’s complete and utter lack of ability this area. For something that is so crucial to directing competence, I am astounded by the low level of skill displayed by 99% of the directors out there. As I never tire of saying, we live in a time of acting excellence and directing incompetence. So many good actors, so very, very few good or even marginally competent directors.

Next, something that is also regrettably rare is good use of music. The music written for the film by Hildur Gudnadottir is quite good - it is not on the level of iconic music like Nino Rota in the Godfather or Herrmann in Taxi Driver, but these days, just to have music that is not grating on the ears in a filmic context has sadly become a rarity. Here, it works quite well - and what a contrast to the sludge of that insufferable no-talent Hans Zimmer - he doesn’t overwhelm you with a tidal wave of cacophony from a thousand instruments like Zimmer in Dune. It creates a mood that matches extremely well with the tone of the film. And the choice of songs - fantastic! I must say, either the director has good taste in music or at least can tell when his music director has chosen good music…!

The sets and locations - excellent. Yes, it’s dark psychologically, but it’s part of the whole of the film, it matches the mood and works really well. Same for makeup and costumes - it all works together, a sign of a great movie, it can create its own distinct world.

All those things are enough for me to proclaim this one of the best movies of recent years. But what of the vociferous criticisms it has received? Let’s tackle it. Again, the story has flaws as I outlined in the beginning of this review, but a lot of the barbs thrown against it seem to me misguided. “This is not he character of Joker as depicted in the comic stories” - what? And which depiction is the “right” one in any of the many instances, where is the “original” to which this Joker is supposed to answer to? As near as I can tell, they’re all different from each other (including the TV shows) so there is no “original” - and I’m not going to hold this Joker to the unique standard of “as in the paper comix” that none of the other screen portrayals were held to. Barry G.’s objection is that this Joker is simply a mentally ill loser as opposed to the criminal mastermind as he’s commonly understood. First of all, this is an *origin story* - so you don’t expect to see a master criminal at the full bloom of his criminal mind - you are seeing how this guy got there. And I think that is also WRONG - at least by the standard of The Dark Knight which is perhaps the most recent iconic depiction of the Joker as played by Heath Ledger. Heath Ledger’s primary characteristic is his demented violence and hatred of society and obsession with Bruce Wayne Batman, not a criminal mind bent of maximizing the size of his haul and profits. Please take another look at The Dark Knight - what is the primary impression we get of the Heath Ledger character? Certainly not “master criminal” insofar as money - it is how much he sees himself as a negative couterpart to Batman, where Batman protects society and Joker hates and wants to destroy society. Heath Ledger’s Joker is quite demented. And so, if we go by the most recent iconic depiction of Joker - Heath Ledger - AND NOBODY OBJECTED TO THAT JOKER AS NOT BEING “TRUE TO THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER”, if we want to see the origin story of how that demented hatred of society got started - and from that point of view, Joker 2019 delivers right on the money! One could object that it’s a bit too focused on the mental illness johnny one note, and that would be a fair rap, but to claim “this is not Joker” is balderdash. It is Joker, through and through, and entirely believable as the origin story to The Dark Knight. Would I have wished for a more subtle portrait - yes, and I guess that’s somewhat a flaw, but let’s not forget, this is a comix character - we are talking DC Universe here, not Shakespeare. So my expectations going in are genre based - and for that, my expectations were met, though not exceeded.

More pt. 2
 
What an awful slog.

There are many things to hate about "Joker". Sure, it was dark and depressing and slightly violent and all that, but lots of films are that.

The two things to hate about Joker that stand out the most are how repellant it is to the DC universe, and the turning point it may represent for society at large.

First, the DC universe: this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Joker. The Joker is a criminal Mastermind, an evil genius. This pic did not portray a genius. This guy was a mentally ill, stupid loser. A victim. He's not a leader of a movement, he's a suicidal misfit victim. Sure, a movement started around him, but that wasn't because of him, that was despite him.

I don't know the origins of this script, but I wouldn't be surprised if it started out with nothing to do with the Joker. It seems like someone shopped around an idea about Incels, and nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole, until some idiot at the studio said "hey, what if instead of calling it 'Loser' or 'Incel', what if we pasted 'Joker' on it?" And thus the funding was secured.

This pic isn't a Joker origin story, it's a disturbing portrayal of mental illness and victimhood. There is no hero. There isn't even a protagonist. There's just a mentally ill loser who goes off his meds and becomes more and more mentally ill.

There's no protagonist, there is only a villain: "the rich". Kill the rich, burn it all down, and somehow this genius idea is inspired by a demented victim who makes every single person he comes in contact with, worse off. Seriously, the legacy of Fleck is that EVERYONE who comes in contact with him is worse off for having encountered him. His mother, his neighbor, his boss, his co-workers, his bus neighbors, Thomas Wayne, DeNiro, EVERYONE. He is like the ultimate reverse Midas, everyone he encounters turns to muck.

The whole thing felt like a European film rather than American. If this travesty of pain and ugliness and victimhood is celebrated, then it may very well go down in history as a turning point in cinema, where the great American dream of Hope and optimism and happy endings is finally extinguished, replaced by a depressing serving of ugliness and awfulness and blaming everyone else for your own problems.

"Joker" is repugnant on every level, no matter what angle it is viewed from.

I think this is the most eloquent ideological objection to the film expressed in this thread. I know Kevin Baggott has a strong dislike for the film, but I am unable to glean any justification he provided for his feelings other than very vague stuff like “exploitative of humanity” whatever that means, probably he summed it best by saying “can’t quite put my finger on it”- that being so, there’s nothing concrete for me to address.

Onto Barry’s points. Wrt. the DC Universe and how it had supposedly nothing to do with it - I already covered that in my previous post, and I think my rebuttal is pretty unassailable. I didn’t see Barry object to the Heath Ledger depiction, and if you asked the general movie public out there I’d bet that beloved as that Heath Ledger performance was, you’d have pretty broad agreement that it was a good representation of Joker, never mind how closely or not it tracked with the comix. And if that is so, then I submit that this Joker is dead on as an origin story - a demented, twisted, violent character who hates society and is obsessed with Wayne/Batman… dead on for both films. How did he come to hate society so much, how did he get this violent and demented and obsessed with Wayne/Batman? Answered at length and totally relevantly by Joker. What I did not see in The Dark Knight is a criminal mastermind who wants to get away with maximum cash… in fact it is conspicuously NOT the point of a criminal mastermind either about the cash or getting away with the crime, as much as it is a demented sick obsessed destructive in all ways insane person focused solely on proving that humanity and society are garbage (see the simultaneous bomb triggers in The Dark Knight!). And yes, he’s obsesed - in both films - with proving that those who protect society are no better (“turning” the DA, and trying to turn Batman in The Dark Knight - and Joaquin’s Joker riposte to the “case for society” from Murray, and his response to the mental health worker “you won’t get it”). He’s more of a supervillain and not a criminal mastermind in The Dark Knight and his origin story in Joker is spot on. Case closed as far as I can see.

Barry’s point about there being no hero - OK. But also there being no protagonist - wha? You’re having a larf, lad. Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker is totes a protagonist - besides the fact that he is in fact in practically every scene, he carries the whole darn movie, and is mesmerizing to watch - an absolutely off the chart riveting character such as few we’ve seen of such power on screen in a long, long time. We watch the devolution - somewhat predictable I’m afraid - of his mental health like a train wreck we can’t take our eyes off of. We even empathize at times - even when he engages in violence (more on that later). And although he’s obviously an anti-hero, and not someone to admire or approve of, we can occasionally feel twinges of understanding for. He is so much of a protagonist that it makes one wonder how one would even make a claim that there is no protagonist in the film, even if the claim is on the order of a contrarian high school exercise of “make a case for how slavery was good”. It’s completely absurd.

“Everyone he comes into contact with is worse off”… and? So? I mean, he’s an anti-hero, or perhaps an outright villain - and that’s how villians can be. I agree that it perhaps would’ve been better to add complexity to the character, as I stated at the outset, purely as an artistic point. But again, this is a comix character, not Shakespeare, and it’s totes allowable in that universe. Nobody asks for the good sides of Rex Luthor or whether he helped any orphans lately. It comes with the territory. And if you think that’s too far from reality, I present you the German Mustache of WWII fame - oh, but he loved dogs! What complexity! Sorry, sometimes people can be pretty one note even in real life. I have even encountered such people - just POSes with no redeeming qualities… haven’t you? Someone who makes everyone he comes into contact with worse off - yeah, I can think of a few. One died a year ago, bringing relief to everyone who knew him, a druggie from early on, who stole, lied, assaulted and tortured everyone around him, and no one had a good word to say about him, not even his mother. That’s real life. So sorry, if the filmic DC Universe isn’t a better more noble place than our planet earth. Absurd complaint.

And the harping on how the Joker is depicted as a victim and an ode to victimhood. This complaint has the air about it of those who complain about “playing the victim card” (an air that’s confirmed further in Barry’s post). How should I put it. Sometimes bad things happen to people, unfair, unjust things, and sometimes people don’t rise above this. Sometimes they are broken by it. Sometimes they’re unable to pull themselves by their bootstraps. Sometimes they can’t just “deal with it man”, and sometimes the weight of relentless unimaginable abuse from early childhood does’t produce a noble overcome story, but instead produces someone who is just plain BROKEN. Now, we all know about the cases of folks who overcame - very gallantly - extreme adversity, and that’s how we think everyone should be, and the less we’ve experienced these adverse circumstances the more we think everyone should just “get over it” and not “play the victim card”. Oh, how empathetic and understanding, except sadly there are many who don’t rise above their disadvantages, and instead are just broken. I do find it slightly curious that some find it easier to harp on the “victim mentality” than the causes - victimizing and brutalizing origin of it. Always easier to blame the victim than fix the cause, and indeed deny that they’re victims at all, or heck, maybe deserved it. Whatever story you tell yourself that makes you sleep better at night, I guess - “it’s all their fault they’re victims”, in a fair world bad things don’t happen, so if it happend to you, you deserved it - we live in a Just World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis).

Regardless, the story of Joker is the story of a man who underwent extreme childhood abuse - and who, tsk, tsk - wasn’t able to just walk it off like a red-blooded American, and instead succumbed to the voices in his head as he sought refuge from the torture as a child chained to a radiator. Given all the advantages of growing up with a mentally ill mother in destitution and delusion it’s a wonder he didn’t turn out better, but I guess that’s how the cookie crumbles for some. And that’s the story. It’s silly to complain about how the screenwriters chose this story instead of a story where the brutalized child sprouts wings and becomes an angel or at least a well-adjusted CEO despite all the petty victim nuisances. They chose the story and the character’s evolution because they had to answer how the demented violent Heath Ledger character turned out demented and violent and hating society instead of becoming a well adjusted CEO, cause he wasn’t a well-adjusted CEO in The Dark Knight, dag nabbit. Another silly complaint.

More pt.3
 
The whole thing felt like a European film rather than American. If this travesty of pain and ugliness and victimhood is celebrated, then it may very well go down in history as a turning point in cinema, where the great American dream of Hope and optimism and happy endings is finally extinguished, replaced by a depressing serving of ugliness and awfulness and blaming everyone else for your own problems.

This I believe is the key paragraph in this ideological complaint. From the presumably degenerate European cinema as opposed to the red-blooded “America F*** Yeah” cinema it’s an odd view of Joker. Never mind that European cinema - and countless European writers, directors and actors who made an impact on American Cinema such that it’s impossible to imagine one without the other - is no more a “travesty of pain and ugliness and victimhood” than any other. “The great American dream of hope and optimism and happy endings” is no more American Cinema than dark anti-war movies and protest films. There’s nothing wrong with depicting dreams of hope and optimism and happy endings, but to make it a mandate to qualify as the true American Cinema sounds like a nightmare, some kind of Stepford Wives plastic rigid smile from 1950’s McCarthy codes of obligatory red-baiting than a free expression of film as a reflection of the artist’s pursuit of his or her vision of reality. It’s redolent of blacklists and Hollywood code paranoia defying of which was so un-American Cinema that it could get you hauled in front of the court of un-American Activities. This defines American Cinema? I beg to differ. There’s a very relevant view from Tarantino, who stated that good decades in American Cinema are followed by bad ones in an alternating pattern. And the 50’s and 80’s were the America F*** Yeah, optimism and happy endings time in American Cinema, not the finest collection of art - whereas more complex films that didn’t always have happy endings full of optimism and ideological marching orders were to be found during the 60’s and 70’s frequently seen as the most innovative fresh and interesting time in American Cinema - so both are Amercan Cinema, and not just the caricature of American Cinema as “optimism and happy endings”… brrr. I know which I prefer, but to each their own. Nobody gets to restrict what American Cinema is - it is everything that was put on film, where rah-rah Rambo and Red Dawn can coexist with Johnny Got His Gun and Born on the Fourth of July. So I reject the “optimism and happy endings” as the one true American Cinema, as an incredibly ideological and ahistorical view.

”[…]depressing serving of ugliness and awfulness and blaming of everyone else for your own problems” - or you know, the lived reality of millions upon millions of ordinary Americans who had the bad judgment of not picking the right parents, the right race, the right economic station, subject to discrimination, police brutality and restricted opportunities. Eff ‘em, they deserve it, and they better not play the “x card” put whatever you wish, victim, race, gender whatnot. Stop complaining. And stop blaming the rich. But these ordinary Americans see how the deck is stacked - which is fine as long as the economy and opportunties are robust enough to overcome some levels of inequality, times when America ruled the world and everyone had at least if not equal then opportunities to better their station. But then inequality levels balooned to depression era numbers and the shrill voices of “don’t complain” no longer work when you see how “the rich” have advantages that are unearned and inherited where one generation pushes legally or illegally offspring into top colleges, offspring who are no better than the son/daughter of a single mother with three jobs who still cannot make it. At some point people take to the streets and the guilottines come out.

BUT.

A point of agreement with Barry. Somewhat. I don’t believe we are at that point in society, where the masses will take to the street. It rings a little hollow and unrealistic when we see “kill the rich” demonstrations in Joker. That ain’t happening anytime soon. It will need a lot more. Depression era level of anger. Civil War level of anger. We may get there one day - who knows, but it’s not soon, and so, the Joker doesn’t feel realistic or convincing on that point and those developments. It’s a weakness in the script. It’s way too pat. But then again, somewhat in defense of the film, this is a comix movie. Gotham City. We’re not talking about a realistic social or historical drama where this would matter much. What does matter is that millions of viewers will certainly find it easy to sympathize with the “eat the rich” sentiment based on their experiences of life and how they percieve things.

Are they wrong? All of them? Millions upon millions of angry people all of them, all wrong? Blaming everyone else? Maybe. But you’d have to make the case. And I’m afraid a careful analysis doesn’t favor the “smile, it’s all your fault” case. The system is stacked. Indisputably. This is not a forum for holding this discussion, but suffice it to say, that two wrongs don’t make a right. What we all desperately need is something that’s at a severe deficit - nuance. Being partisan is the enemy of objectivity. I am on neither side, and dislike propaganda from both. From one side, it’s the “everything is OK, don’t complain” - which they said always, and under all circumstanes, forever, by the millions, during slavery, concentration camps and every awful thing you can imagine, it had millions of fans who saw absolutely nothing wrong. Nothing wrong ever… particularly, if they are not the ones affected, natch. Just as they see nothing wrong now. Stop complaining, you deserve everything you get and worse, don’t blame X, blame yourself. On the other side you have it’s all the system and we need not just equal opportunity, but forced equal outcomes denial of reality, restricted speech and the cancel culture of the woke rule by mob. Both are wrong. The system - every system - needs reform, so everyone gets a fair break, and an equal shot - but that’s where it stops, there is still individual performance after that, and you cannot enforce outcomes regardless of personal responsibility and personal effort. And so we are caught in a hopeless dispute between two wrongs that will never make a right.

But getting back to the sympathy for the devil. Yes, we have twinges of empathy and even sympathy for the Joker. I’m as opposed to vigilante justice as the next guy. But who didn’t feel “you got what you deserved” when Joker finally broke, and killled for the first time, those three rich thugs who kicked the sh|t out of him? Who didn’t feel that he had the right to defend his life? Who didn’t think that they old adage applied “f*** around and find out” when they decided to attack him and maybe take his life? OK, vigilante justice should not be promoted, but the sentiment is awfully widespread - which is how you get the great popularity of “stand you ground laws”. Have we forgotten real life of the subway shooter Bernhard Goetz - a milqtoast looking incel-like quite similar in affect to Joker? Go down memory lane and remember how popular he was. Countless movies were made along the same idea, exploiting the same sentiment - Death Wish, anyone? That’s how you got a bit of sympathy even for Joker at his first killings - and as depicted in the film, the majority of Gotham City denizens… quite like NY back in the day. Accurate as heck.

More in pt. 4
 
So is the Joker just an ideologically unnuanced and simplistic film pushing an agenda? Nope. We may disagree with some aspects of this story from an artistic view - and I’ve make my case about the flaws of Joker in this regard. I think better could have been done. It’s not a script with scintillating dialogue and a complex character study or societal critique. But it’s not the brain-dead caricature of sorry a$$ victimhood and blame game claimed by Barry.

In fact, it is a *very* self aware film. How do we know? BECAUSE THE FILM EXPLICITLY ANTICIPATES BARRY’S TAKE. Yep. Go to the sequence of Arthur on Murray’s show. Murray basically makes Barry’s points in response to the Joker. He asks if this isn’t just self-pity, a mental case who self-justifies violent murder. So, no it’s not as if Barry’s objections never occurred to the filmmakers. They were FULLY aware of them. Now you may or may not be happy with Arthur’s rejoinder - essentially, that you/society/Murray/Barry are OK with “justice” being meted out to the low on the totem pole of society’s underclass, the people you step over on the sidewalk because “they deserved it”, as Goetz happened to mete justice out to folks of a certain race, at the bottom of society. That’s fine and dandy. But as soon as the same justice is meted out to rich thugs who did the same evil/crime, you wail about the bodies on the ground - suddenly “don’t call for attacking the rich”. And we’ve all seen how justice can be bought and sold when it comes to the criminal justice system depending on your money and status. If the only justice is vigilante justice, now you cry out, when it’s the rich at the receiving end? How very fair of you. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

You might be OK with that or not - certainly I don’t think the filmmakers tried to make Joker into a positive character, excuse his crimes, justify his violence, endorse his worldview, applaud his actions. He’s clearly mentally ill. He is clearly culpable for his actions. Nobody can endorse or promote that behavior. But is that culpability his alone? Does society have ANY partial culpability in this outcome at all? Zero? That’s what’s in dispute here. And quite a few would say that a society that is that unequal and stacked and predatory, regardless of what blind ideologues say (who, remember will defend any system, including slavery, with their lives by the millions), must bear some portion of responsibility for the brewing of problems that manifest themselves as present REALITY. You may deny that anything’s wrong (with Germany :)), but millions who have a different experience of that system will feel differently.

So yes, it’s a dark film. But is the film unfair and “repugnant on every level”? Not according to millions of people who may not share your ideology or experience of life - whatever it may be, right-wing or left wing equally(!). Are they all losers with victim mentality? Each viewer can decide that for themselves.

This is where I have to say, I find this entire line of inquiry of little value. I am not interested in ideological critiques of films. So to me, Barry’s entire post is irrelevant to the film and does not resonate. You can analyze any film from an ideological point of view. Rambo and those kinds of movies were seen by some under such analysis as fascist - as rah-rah nationalism, where the filmmakers were manufacturing alternative history as Germans did after WWI with the “stab in the back” mythology to justify the defeat and hatred of their chosen enemies. So they said, Rambo and those films found ways to explain the failure of the Vietnam war of aggression or interference in the affairs of others, and made a false and ahistorical narrative of how it was all shadowy politicians and gutless or evil brass who lost it all, and one good soldier could just mow down heaps and heaps and heaps of faceless “others” and achieve America F*** Yeah victory and a happy ending. I didn’t buy it. Too simplistic an analysis that relies on nothing more than perceived ideology. More importantly I wasn’t interested, as I am much more interested in other aspects of film - the script, the characters, the acting, the camera, cinematography, the music THE EXPERIENCE of it as a work of art. Leave ideology to bad film school classes.

Even for films which ARE EXPLICITLY ideological, with an agenda (which I don’t think Joker is!), I still don’t care about the ideology, of say, Birth of A Nation - I’m interested in what it brings to the table as effective film making. I don’t agree with whatever the ideology was being pushed, glorificaiton of the KKK. But that’s not what I focus on in experiencing the film. I didn’t care about the Communist propaganda of early Soviet films - but I did care that they used super innovative techniques and made the experience of the art what it was.

So to focus on the purported ideology of Joker - and inaccurately at that! - as the sole criterion by which to judge the movie, strikes me as utterly missing the point.

Joker is a brilliantly made movie. The acting is spectacular. The camera work second to NONE. Cinematography. Use of music. Sets, locations, make up and costumes. The brilliant editing which I didn’t even have time to get into - long as these posts are already. On a technical forum especially, these are the heart and soul of the movie. Ideology?? So irrelevant. We have a once in many decades quality of camera work, and that alone is worth examining and studying for decades to come, let alone the rest.

My score - 9 out of 10 stars. YMMV, and just my one man’s opinion.
 
"I know Kevin Baggott has a strong dislike for the film, but I am unable to glean any justification he provided for his feelings other than very vague stuff like “exploitative of humanity” whatever that means, probably he summed it best by saying “can’t quite put my finger on it”- that being so, there’s nothing concrete for me to address."

I hate this film and you think it's one of the greatest. Anything I had to say about it you would find vague - trust me.
 
This film was always destined to divide opinion. It doesn't mean one viewpoint is correct and the other wrong, they are both equally valid. I can watch the same film twice and get two completely different reactions to it depending on a whole host of things. It's a bit like my ex-wife in that respect.
 
In the end I felt that the film had nothing to really say. Nothing about society, nothing about the character and his struggle in the world. Everything just sucked and he learned to wallow in it. It was a hollow shell dressed in the guise of something that believed it was meaningful. The main character was a selfish little cockroach who was utterly uninteresting to watch. What made Heath Leger's Joker fascinating was that he was a true sociopath on a mission to prove that we all are selfish bastards in the end. He was genuinely surprised when he learned in the end that others didn't all just want to watch the world burn like he did. This Joker didn't care about anything at all. He was an empty, shallow, worthless little man. That is beyond uninteresting to me.
 
"It was a hollow shell dressed in the guise of something that believed it was meaningful." Exactly. Sorry - you don't do the schlock work that Philip has done from the beginning - then suddenly your making something consequential. It doesn't work like that. You don't write pulp novels to pay the bills than on the weekends write Crime and Punishment. I understand everyone has to keep food on the table - but when you put garbage out into the world to keep the lights on - I believe it bites you in the ass big time - if you believe Cinema is an art form that is. This is just my opinion. Joker was trauma porn under the tent of a three-ring circus with the radio on the whole time. Anyway - this poor horse has been beaten enuf. Let the man enjoy his rock-candy syrup.
 
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