Joker

bill totolo said:
The greatest joke in Joker is on an audience who thought this was another comic-book, sci-fi fantasy.
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I already bristled at the suggestion that the filmmakers were seeking to trick people or somehow pull a "joke" on "suckers" expecting another typical super-hero action flick. It makes it out as if there was attempted deception on the part of the filmmakers or the studio. If there was any desire to trick people, the trailer would make the film appear to be another cookie-cutter comic super-hero film. But the trailer makes it evident that this is a very different film. I don't see how anyone who has seen the trailer could go into the film thinking it was going to be a lighthearted, fun-ride comic book film like Deadpool. I don't see any attempt at a "gotcha!" there. On the contrary, to me at least, the trailer, the marketing, and the presentation where the director dissects scenes from the film- all are very honest about what sort of film this is. Even the movie poster tells you that this is a gritty film. The poster is very different from the posters for comic-based films such as Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy.

In this day and age, what with readily available access to film previews, reviews, reactions, buzz, I find it hard to believe that there is "an audience who thought this was another comic-book, sci-fi fantasy." at all. Particularly for this genre, the audience for which tending to be media savvy and heavy users of youtube. Even the movie poster tells you that this is a gritty film. Maybe someone is feeling "duped" after having walked in with no idea what the film is like. But for whenever that is the case, I put that more on the film-goer than on the filmmaker. If you know anything about the film at all, you know that it is dark and not another fun comic book film. I imagine there are some as well who went in thinking it another shallow, silly comic book film and walked out, not feeling duped or suckered, but instead pleasantly surprised. But again, the idea that someone goes into seeing Joker with no idea what they are about to get, despite all the publicity the film has generated and controversy, is about as probable as someone walking into a Trump rally with no idea of what they are going to be served.
 
Yeah - how could you watch the trailer and not know what kind of film yer seeing. Bill I love your review and had only wished that was the film I got to see.

'I suspect those who've had struggles in their own lives will be able to relate to aspects of this character, which in no way condones his behavior.' "We all get our bloody noses in life" I believe it was dh lawrence who said it. I know I've had mine. But I didn't relate. And I've lived on those blocks and buildings where the film was shot and had a mother who had a stroke and breakdown and all the rest of it. It's poverty porn - forget who coined the phrase. It's all one note in the film. The filmmakers cover all bets - it's not taxi driver - where travis is a racist - where 10 minutes into the film he shoots a black guy for holding up a bodega and then we watch the store owner club the last drops of life out of the guy. In The Joker - he dates (albeit in fantasy) a black woman. He makes faces for black kids on the bus. The photography was great - no doubt. Phoenix an oscar - sure why not - they owe it to him for the master.


'This is a movie for adults.' Well - I'm just a couple of years away from getting senior tixs - so - it wasn't for me.

'Just one man's opinion'. Me too - no offense :)
 
kevin baggott said:
Yeah - how could you watch the trailer and not know what kind of film yer seeing. Bill I love your review and had only wished that was the film I got to see.

'I suspect those who've had struggles in their own lives will be able to relate to aspects of this character, which in no way condones his behavior.' "We all get our bloody noses in life" I believe it was dh lawrence who said it. I know I've had mine. But I didn't relate. And I've lived on those blocks and buildings where the film was shot and had a mother who had a stroke and breakdown and all the rest of it. It's poverty porn - forget who coined the phrase. It's all one note in the film. The filmmakers cover all bets - it's not taxi driver - where travis is a racist - where 10 minutes into the film he shoots a black guy for holding up a bodega and then we watch the store owner club the last drops of life out of the guy. In The Joker - he dates (albeit in fantasy) a black woman. He makes faces for black kids on the bus. The photography was great - no doubt. Phoenix an oscar - sure why not - they owe it to him for the master.


'This is a movie for adults.' Well - I'm just a couple of years away from getting senior tixs - so - it wasn't for me.

'Just one man's opinion'. Me too - no offense :)
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No offense at all, in fact, thank you for sharing your point of view.
What good is this discussion of we don't have different opinions?
 
DLD said:
It's also breaking October box office records.
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That's getting awfully granular. It's not far from "biggest October XXth movie opening ever!" or "biggest opening for a movie with a title that starts with 'J' ever!"

Not picking on YOU at all, just commenting on how publicists and marketing reps always find some obscure or meaningless "record" for a movie to have broken.
 
David Jimerson said:
That's getting awfully granular. It's not far from "biggest October XXth movie opening ever!" or "biggest opening for a movie with a title that starts with 'J' ever!"

Not picking on YOU at all, just commenting on how publicists and marketing reps always find some obscure or meaningless "record" for a movie to have broken.
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That's a touch unfair, Joker is doing amazing business. In fact, it's probably fair to say, Joker is laughing all the way to the bank.
 
On the IMDB page for User Reviews "Joker" has 4,011 ten-out-of-ten reviews from a total of 5,972 reviews. ( I read a bunch of these and it seems like a lot of these TEN reviews are from the Venice or TIFF film festival goers )

IMDB "Joker" User Reviews
 
I wondering if the negative reactions to the success of the film are sourced in alarm that present-day society had such appetite for such a dark film. Made worse if you find Joker a bad film. When a bad but happy film does well there isn't this sort of hostile reaction to that film's success.
 
David Jimerson said:
That's getting awfully granular. It's not far from "biggest October XXth movie opening ever!" or "biggest opening for a movie with a title that starts with 'J' ever!"

Not picking on YOU at all, just commenting on how publicists and marketing reps always find some obscure or meaningless "record" for a movie to have broken.
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While the PR machine is indeed working overtime (and taking care of business), these time frames are not meaningless. There's the blockbuster/tent pole summer season, the Christmas/Holidays schedule, etc. October, generally speaking, is a slow month, as it's sandwiched between the end of the summer season and the beginning of the Christmas holidays. Plus, there are Jewish holidays that close down many businesses.

As to the "Joker" itself, it sits at ~ $600M globally after fewer than two weeks in theaters. What's even more impressive is that Phillips did it on a $55M budget (according to Box Office Mojo), which is almost minuscule by comparison with other major releases ("Gemini Man" $138M, Ad Astra ~ $100M, "Hobbs and Shaw" $200M, etc.)
 
DLD said:
While the PR machine is indeed working overtime (and taking care of business), these time frames are not meaningless. There's the blockbuster/tent pole summer season, the Christmas/Holidays schedule, etc. October, generally speaking, is a slow month, as it's sandwiched between the end of the summer season and the beginning of the Christmas holidays. Plus, there are Jewish holidays that close down many businesses.
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Again, not picking on you at all, or even the movie, but that sounds like "it broke records where there's a really low bar." Which, honestly, comes across as even more marketing-schlocky.
 
David Jimerson said:
Again, not picking on you at all, or even the movie, but that sounds like "it broke records where there's a really low bar." Which, honestly, comes across as even more marketing-schlocky.
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I don't feel you're picking on me. (are you picking on me?)

Anyhow, these are top October openings, with a few notable blockbusters sprinkled among them - Gravity, Star is Born, the Martian. The unadjusted rankings obviously skew toward recent releases but the Joker sits at #1 with ten more days and two more weekends to go.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/month/?mo=10&p=.htm

PS. Insofar as the movie marketing goes, Warner now probably wishes it opened over the Labor day but it had "It, Chapter Two" on that date - studios don't want their movies competing against each other - and that became its biggest hit of 2019 at $447M (#2 now). Plus, as a pure horror flick, it was more youth oriented, so it made sense to release it toward the end of summer.
 
Finally got around to seeing it. Hated it. I can appreciate the craft from everyone involved, but in the end it was a hollow shell with little to nothing to say. The climactic scene on the talk show was so empty, so terrible. I sat there thinking, “that’s it? That’s all you’ve got?” It actually pissed me off at that point.

The growth (or descent) through the film wasn’t enough to carry it for me. I simply wasn’t interested. Your mileage may vary. Nothing close to the depth of Taxi Driver or King of Comedy.
 
Just got home from a screening too. And I'm still not sure what I found more unsettling, Joaquin's performance, or the middle-aged group next to me who broke into giggles every time that scratching, choking horrible laugh came out of Arthur. I couldn't tell if they were laughing from their own nervousness or laughing at him, but I didn't like that either way.

It's a dark, dark film. I don't think I mustered so much as a grin at any point of it.

But I thought it was extremely well done.

My only nitpicks would be the few moments where they didn't trust the audience (like explaining what happened with the girlfriend), showing the Waynes at the end (that would have been better being simply alluded to), his final moment with his mother (which didn't quite feel motivated), and I think the talk show stuff would have played better if you'd felt like his final decision was a little more arbitrary (will it be him, or will it be the host?) I think that would have felt more inherently joker-ish.
 
What an awful slog.

There are many things to hate about "Joker". Sure, it was dark and depressing and slightly violent and all that, but lots of films are that.

The two things to hate about Joker that stand out the most are how repellant it is to the DC universe, and the turning point it may represent for society at large.

First, the DC universe: this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Joker. The Joker is a criminal Mastermind, an evil genius. This pic did not portray a genius. This guy was a mentally ill, stupid loser. A victim. He's not a leader of a movement, he's a suicidal misfit victim. Sure, a movement started around him, but that wasn't because of him, that was despite him.

I don't know the origins of this script, but I wouldn't be surprised if it started out with nothing to do with the Joker. It seems like someone shopped around an idea about Incels, and nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole, until some idiot at the studio said "hey, what if instead of calling it 'Loser' or 'Incel', what if we pasted 'Joker' on it?" And thus the funding was secured.

This pic isn't a Joker origin story, it's a disturbing portrayal of mental illness and victimhood. There is no hero. There isn't even a protagonist. There's just a mentally ill loser who goes off his meds and becomes more and more mentally ill.

There's no protagonist, there is only a villain: "the rich". Kill the rich, burn it all down, and somehow this genius idea is inspired by a demented victim who makes every single person he comes in contact with, worse off. Seriously, the legacy of Fleck is that EVERYONE who comes in contact with him is worse off for having encountered him. His mother, his neighbor, his boss, his co-workers, his bus neighbors, Thomas Wayne, DeNiro, EVERYONE. He is like the ultimate reverse Midas, everyone he encounters turns to muck.

The whole thing felt like a European film rather than American. If this travesty of pain and ugliness and victimhood is celebrated, then it may very well go down in history as a turning point in cinema, where the great American dream of Hope and optimism and happy endings is finally extinguished, replaced by a depressing serving of ugliness and awfulness and blaming everyone else for your own problems.

"Joker" is repugnant on every level, no matter what angle it is viewed from.
 
FWIW, the RotTom audience score has come down to 89% (with over 48,000 grades), so now there's only a 22% gap from the critics.

PS. There's also a 22% gap on the "Hustlers" but it's the other way, with the critics over the audience. The film's done pretty well though domestically, with over $100M gross ($125M global) on a $20M budget. The "Joker" is at $737M globally and is not about to crash.
 
Barry_Green said:
What an awful slog.

There are many things to hate about "Joker". Sure, it was dark and depressing and slightly violent and all that, but lots of films are that.

The two things to hate about Joker that stand out the most are how repellant it is to the DC universe, and the turning point it may represent for society at large.

First, the DC universe: this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Joker. The Joker is a criminal Mastermind, an evil genius. This pic did not portray a genius. This guy was a mentally ill, stupid loser. A victim. He's not a leader of a movement, he's a suicidal misfit victim. Sure, a movement started around him, but that wasn't because of him, that was despite him.

I don't know the origins of this script, but I wouldn't be surprised if it started out with nothing to do with the Joker. It seems like someone shopped around an idea about Incels, and nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole, until some idiot at the studio said "hey, what if instead of calling it 'Loser' or 'Incel', what if we pasted 'Joker' on it?" And thus the funding was secured.

This pic isn't a Joker origin story, it's a disturbing portrayal of mental illness and victimhood. There is no hero. There isn't even a protagonist. There's just a mentally ill loser who goes off his meds and becomes more and more mentally ill.

There's no protagonist, there is only a villain: "the rich". Kill the rich, burn it all down, and somehow this genius idea is inspired by a demented victim who makes every single person he comes in contact with, worse off. Seriously, the legacy of Fleck is that EVERYONE who comes in contact with him is worse off for having encountered him. His mother, his neighbor, his boss, his co-workers, his bus neighbors, Thomas Wayne, DeNiro, EVERYONE. He is like the ultimate reverse Midas, everyone he encounters turns to muck.

The whole thing felt like a European film rather than American. If this travesty of pain and ugliness and victimhood is celebrated, then it may very well go down in history as a turning point in cinema, where the great American dream of Hope and optimism and happy endings is finally extinguished, replaced by a depressing serving of ugliness and awfulness and blaming everyone else for your own problems.

"Joker" is repugnant on every level, no matter what angle it is viewed from.
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I said it was dark and not for everyone lol.
 
Barry_Green said:
What an awful slog.

There are many things to hate about "Joker". Sure, it was dark and depressing and slightly violent and all that, but lots of films are that.

The two things to hate about Joker that stand out the most are how repellant it is to the DC universe, and the turning point it may represent for society at large.

First, the DC universe: this had nothing whatsoever to do with the Joker. The Joker is a criminal Mastermind, an evil genius. This pic did not portray a genius. This guy was a mentally ill, stupid loser. A victim. He's not a leader of a movement, he's a suicidal misfit victim. Sure, a movement started around him, but that wasn't because of him, that was despite him.

I don't know the origins of this script, but I wouldn't be surprised if it started out with nothing to do with the Joker. It seems like someone shopped around an idea about Incels, and nobody would touch it with a 10 foot pole, until some idiot at the studio said "hey, what if instead of calling it 'Loser' or 'Incel', what if we pasted 'Joker' on it?" And thus the funding was secured.

This pic isn't a Joker origin story...
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From what I read before it came out, that is a pretty good synopsis. The movie has nothing to do with the Canonical Joker/Batman world or characters. The original/base movie had no chance of getting made, but the decision was made to slap the name Joker on it and to give it an apparent, loose tie-in and it got the green light.
 
The filmmakers claim that the story did originate with the Joker character and how to make an origin story, so I’ll take them at their word. That said, I agree with Barry that it totally misses the point of the DC Comics Joker character. That person is a sociopath not a psychopath and they are very different things. This Joker doesn’t care about the rest of the world but the original Joker does to the extent that he wants to burn it all down. “Explaining” him cheapens him, and it also fundamentally misunderstands the character. You want to make a different character in your movie? Okay fine. Congratulations you’ve portrayed a cockroach.
 
Well, to be fair -- the only screen depiction and origin story anywhere close to the "original" Joker (i.e., the Joker from the comics) is Burton's. Nolan's isn't. Sure, you may really like Nolan's take and Ledger's performance (many do), but it wasn't the comics Joker.
 
Nolan didn’t offer an origin story. Didn’t need to. His Joker was a sociopath but not so unhinged the you couldn’t follow his dark logic. I believe the comics had Joker a bit more random, more unpredictable. Because he was also insane, which was what also so terrifying about him.
 
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