Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Out of the box the DVX100 looks more "film like"... ok fair enough. Is 24P the only thing that makes it look film like?...
Click to expand...

24p is the single biggest factor, sure. Even taking away the cine-like gamma and cine-like matrix, it still looks more like film. (BTW, a 480p DVD looks great on my HD set.)


From comments that I see though like "WE want 24P" and other things, I think if panasonic announced a 24P 720 HD model in the price range, a lot of these SD vs HD downres debates would no longer be relevant...
Click to expand...


If Panasonic – or anybody else – released such a cam (and hopefully it won’t be TOO long before we see one), we’d all take a serious, excited look, indeed. I think a lot would be more likely to be optimistic about a Panasonic, simply because we know they got 24p right in the DVX, so a 24p HD “DVX” should, in theory, meet our hopes/expectations. But then, it might not, and someone else might do it better. I hope there are several options, actually.

That’s not to say that most of us didn’t take a serious look at the Sony. I’m not sure why it has to be, automatically, “sour grapes” or “brand bigotry” if we, knowing what we want out of a cam, looked at the Sony and said “well, we can wait for better.” Really, what’s wrong with that?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#60 date=02/01/05 at 07:25:13]
That’s not to say that most of us didn’t take a serious look at the Sony.  I’m not sure why it has to be, automatically, “sour grapes” or “brand bigotry” if we, knowing what we want out of a cam, looked at the Sony and said “well, we can wait for better.”  Really, what’s wrong with that?
[/quote]

id certainly agree with that. if i wanted the sony id buy one right now. i simply do not want it. "sour grapes" comes from bashing something simply because you cannot have it... "brand bigotry" comes from not wanting something simpy because of the brand name on it. and sheer "running of the un-educated mouth" comes from bashing somethnig because you do not really understand it. when in most of our cases, we dont want it simply because it doesnt meet our standards. ..and while others may call it "snobbery" , i simply call it "making the right choices to suite my needs".

and concerning panasonic undercutting themselves by releasing the cam... panasonic has already made their intentions clear on releasing true 24p HD at the target price range. they wont really be undercutting themselves at all. theres ALOT more to a camera than simpy having 24p or HD.. just the same as the DVX with 24p and SD didnt kill all SDX900 or other better SD camera sales. the SDX is still a much better cam. bigger CCDs - standard lense mount - programmable features.... yada yada yada. i use this analogy alot , but if my webcam did 24p at HD res i doubt webcam sales would take over the market for the viper filmstream camera. ..and i wouldnt buy a v12 lamborghini engine strapped to a go cart frame and think that all of a sudden im going to take over lamborghini sales. theres the control and functions and all sorts of other things that make one camera worth buying over another. ..simply put, not all HD 24p cameras are created equal. and you dont buy a knife for a sword fight.. same type of object .. and does the same job, but one is bigger badder ,and much better suited for the job. and at that i promise you that james cameron and george lucas and robert rodruiguez and other TV shows and networks and larger studios are not going to turn in their cine altas or turn down a varicam or viper filmstream camera for a 5,000.00 panasonic camcorder simply because it has HD and 24p. i speculate that what change we will likely see is a continued slow dripping trend of replacemt of BetaSp cams and other news gathering or run + gun type related cams being replaced by the DVX line.. just in HD.

..on a side note i think its the same line of thinking that leaves people unable to fathom why others are not intersted in the new sony HDV cams. its not just about simply having HD resolution ..its about having the professional reliability-functionality and creative control and professional workflow behind it. and for many knowledgeable independent filmmakers who are able to simply look beyond the coveted letters "HD" on the camera.. the sonys current HDV approach just doesnt add up.. like barry said.. its really just not the right tool for the job. for other jobs .. sure.. serious filmmaking. no. not in the least IMHO.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#60 date=02/01/05 at 07:25:13]

... knowing what we want out of a cam, looked at the Sony and said “well, we can wait for better.” Really, what’s wrong with that?
[/quote]

Nothing wrong with it. But who can wait for the better one? Life is too short to always wait for the better one. The business is running and today's better one is generating cashflow now. As Jody Eldred said, it's almost free. It's a cheap ticket into the HD-world.

There is already a better one from Panasonic for those who wants a better one, a AJ-HDC27F for 65.900,- U.S. list price.

Jimerson. Would you be so kind and post just a one minut of your 480p footage in DV format here? There are many of the users here who would like to see it on the HDTV. Just 30 sec. or 1 min. Thank you.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Neil R. link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#61 date=02/01/05 at 08:32:30]

... like barry said.. its really just not the right tool for the job. for other jobs .. sure.. serious filmmaking. no. not in the least IMHO.[/quote]

Jody Eldred said it is the right tool for the job. I guess he must be a Sony Agent.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

I can wait, Sergej. Obviously quite a few others can, too. It’s hardly a question of always waiting for the “better one.” It’s a question of waiting for the one which actually has what I want, whereas the Sony does not. I really do NOT see what’s so hard to understand about that.

Anyone who wants to test what a 480p DVD looks like on an HDTV set need only take, say, the Region 1 “Monsters, Inc.” and play it on a properly-set up a progressive-scan player. You don’t need my footage for that.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Totally everyone.

I haven't seen that camera release yet (In my price range) that makes me go "Oh, I just have to have that!". My DVX100-24p is exactly what I want and need currently and no other camera makes or breaks that fact.

Hell, even if a camera is released in my price range ( Under $4500.00 ) that had EXACTLY what I wanted I still couldnt just run out and get it. I have resolved to use the DVX100 until my skills, experience and needs dictate otherwise. It'll have to one hell of a dream machine to make me buy another one.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#64 date=02/01/05 at 09:10:00] It’s hardly a question of always waiting for the “better one.”  It’s a question of waiting for the one which actually has what I want, whereas the Sony does not.  I really do NOT see what’s so hard to understand about that.[/quote]


amen, im not going to get on a boat if its not going to float with the stuff i put in it. im going to wait for one that does float. its not a matter of always waiting for a bigger better yacht to carry me acrossed the ocean. its just a matter of waiting for something that actually floats in the first place. the sony simply would not work well at all for what we need our camera to do. plain and simple. just because it has HD does not mean its well suited for HD film production..at all. so were waiting for a camera that will work. once that comes out i doubt youll see many of us selling and buying every little upgrade that comes out. its not about the newest and the best.. I still have the DVX100. ..not the A even though its newer and has a couple upgrades.. and i couldnt care less.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#64 date=02/01/05 at 09:10:00]... the Region 1 “Monsters, Inc.” and play it on a properly-set up a progressive-scan player.
[/quote]

It's not bashing but.... we are back to the crossconvertion. They didn't use Vegas to do the job. And the mpeg encoding has a major rolle in DVD production. Just the hardware setup cost more than 20.000 to do the encoding. All those equipments gives you the "Wow it is great on my HD". The result isn't soft. It is like it has to be.

That's way I said I'm agree with Barry's test result even I'm not egree with the picture results. A DVXuser with 1 DVX + 1PC with Vegas(or other nle) just making DVD don't need to buy any other camcorder if they want to make a better DVD only. They just can't make a better DVD with the equipments they have today. Of course if they do everything right.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

The reality is; we can yap all day and night about which camera is the best one. The best one isn't the same for each person and comparatively speaking, the average viewer isn't going to know the difference anyway. We tend to fixate on these techincal details and pizex counts and chip size and chip shape and and and....

CONTENT IS KING as always. I hope after all this bantering on which one to buy and which one is best that you're able to produce something that people actually want to watch
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=SergejIvanovits link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#65 date=02/01/05 at 09:12:22]Ok, what kind of HD-sett are you using today? [/quote]

I have a 55” Mitsubishi Diamond.

The statement was, “for those of you who haven't seen SD on HD sets... it really isn't pretty.”  And I beg to differ.  The statement wasn’t about home-burned DVDs; it was about SD in general.  I see quite a bit of SD on my HD set, and sometimes it does look terrible (like, pulled off the air), but it doesn’t have to.

And you STILL don’t seem to able to get your mind around the fact that I’m not opposed to HD and will buy an HD cam once it has 24p.

Here’s the best analogy I can think of.

Converted 60i is to 24p what colorized B&W is to color.  It’s at its very best an approximation.  I don't want the approximation; I want 24p.

For those of you who say things along the lines of "business can’t wait" and "I want to future-proof my clients" (the implication being that anyone who doesn't jump on the Sony cam RIGHT NOW is a fool) . . .

Do you mix every single DVD’s sound in Dolby 5.1?  If not, why not?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

...honestly, some people just dont get it. its all

"why do you hate nice cars!? theres a cadillac escalade right outside waiting for you to go and get into the indy 500.. you just hate cars.. your biased against cadillac"

-- "no, im just waiting for someone to make an affordable indy race car"

"you can wait forever for the next and best thing, but thats just dumb.. the caddillac is a good car"

--"i dont think the cadillac would perform well in an indy car race. i just want somthing thats designed for racing and can handle what im going to do with it"

"nice cars are the future.. you dont get it do you.. the caddillac is a nice car, and it will last you many years its the way of the future"

--"yes i understand that cars with nice features are the way of the future.. i just want an indy race car with nice features"


"cadillac rules!"


---"great, enjoy it..."



"you just cant handle the future!!!"



---"is this thiing on?.. test .. test.. check one.. two... can you hear me?"



"nice cars rule!!!!"


----"sigh.....insert that forever elusive emoticon were missing here"
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Ok now... let's all try to get along here.   :)

I will say this then as an HD pusher (which I guess after hearing these arguements that is the side I fall on :)).

The Sony Cam is a breakthrough.  Technology and price point...  which is what Jody in the clip is saying.  No one here can argue that... (or can they?... I better retract that statement :))

True no 24P and if that is what you want and need... this is definately not the right cam for you.

The possibility of a project uprezzed to HD in the future does excite me, and I hope Panasonic does steal bits and pieces of the new Sony and it's features and puts a nice spin on them with 24P in an affordable price range.

My main point is this and it's not a cam vs cam one... when the Panasonic one comes out it's going to be an awesome accomplishment and an exciting time too.  (and we don't need to see reply posts like "it will be better cause it's 24P" comment... that here is a given :) )  If it's in this price range and there is an option to shoot 16x9 24P HD and then downrez to SD internally, it is exciting to know you can low rez edit and work in DV, then up rez an HD master!  Regardless of the output medium, if everone shot on the highes rez option possible, yes while distribution is an important peice of the puzzle, no one here is going to toss away their HD master cause "consumers can't watch it"... were all video geeks here at heart  ::)... (can I say that) and knowing that the HD pro stuff is around the corner is exciting.

Don't jump if you don't have to... jump if you want to.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Don't jump if you don't have to... jump if you want to
Click to expand...

I agree with you almost completely this time, Video Guy.;D I would just have to add, don't jump if you don't want to because it's not something that makes you want to jump.

And I just wanted to tag on to something Neil said. If I wanted to buy the FX1, I could do it today. I could have done it a couple of months ago when I got another PD170 for some of my low light event work. I checked out the FX1 carefully before I made the purchase, but decided it gained nothing that I really needed and lost some low light ability. So it's really not about brands. It's about what I think is best for me, and I believe there's a good chance it will be the Panasonic HD offering (because it will be 24p ;D). If it turns out not to be, then at some point soon I will get a DVX cam, because I have some projects that are aching for the 24p treatment. If Canon or Sony (obviously not likely at this point) came out with a good combo of both, I would take a careful look at both. That's what's in my best interests.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Jeff_Chandler link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=60#74 date=02/01/05 at 17:55:08]
I agree with you almost completely this time, Video Guy.;D
[/quote]

Ha.. I knew there would have to be at least one objection.   :)

You said a few post back when I made the comment about I'm sure that we all agree both camps are producing great products at a great dollar value regardless of your preference ...
Your response to that was...
"I haven't seen enough from the Sony to agree to that."  Are you talking directly about the FX1/Z1 or Sony in General.  If you are talking about the FX1/Z1 hasn't been around long enough to consider it a great value then ok I can kind of understand that... but from a feature/price stand point it's hard to back that up.  If you mean that you haven't seen results from the Sony camp in general,!?! that seems to be a slightly ignorant/uninformed opinion (not meaning to be mean here)   No one making claims against the Z1/FX1/HDV format really knows the pros and cons of them yet besides pure speculation... besides the obvious cons... there is no 24P and it's HDV.

If this is your stance I'm curious as to why you bought a PD170 over the FX1/Z1.  (low light was really the deal breaker? HD holds zero value?)  Clearly DVX vs Z1 is a different debate... but Z1 vs PD170?  I made the comment earlier which by Barry's response I'm not sure if he understood what I mean when I said lets watch PD170 sales... I meant now that the FX/Z1 is out, I THINK PD170 sales are going to fall off the chart.  I'm not comparing the PD170 between the DVX cause it's a different case ... 24P vs DVCAM... which for the record I would have chosen the DVX in a heart beat.  I'm curious as to why you chose the PD170 over the FX1/Z1... over the DVX for that matter... (low light was the major deal breaker?)
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Hey, it wasn't an objection, just an addition ;D.
For the events I have done, high school dance recitals being among them, low light is extremely critical. The lighting that they do in high school dance is very dark and there is no way to add light. I tried using my XL1, but it just didn't come close to the Sony's low light capabilities. And since these clients have no interest at this time in HD, the PD170 is the perfect cam in that price range. Plus, with the $300 rebate that Sony has had on it, it is several hundred dollars less than the FX1.

I was speaking specifically about the FX1/Z1 when I made the statement about not having seen enough.
I understand that they are too new. I obviously am not a Sony hater. Over the years three-fourths of the cams I have bought have been Sonys. At the same time, I owe no allegiance to Sony. I owe that to myself, and I will buy the cam that I think best suits my needs (after careful examination), regardless of the brand. At this point it looks like it will be a Panasonic.
As to the sales of the PD170, I expect them to drop off, but I'm not convinced that they will drop off the charts. But time will tell. I suspect that at some point Sony will decide to eliminate them, unless sales remain extremely strong. I think they will have too many cams that seem too similar, in spite of their significant differences, but that's just my opinion.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Agreed... cause really aside from the low light on the PD170's the Z1 offers a ton of extras.  The low light issue has been a concern though for some people and you're right... we'll have to keep watching.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Ok, so CF25 looks better than CF24 (so I have read) .

So even if I was not planning on releasing my production in PAL it still would be better for me to shoot in CF25 and convert to NTSE 24p?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

It would be better to use a 24P camera to get 24p, of course, but if not using a 24p camera, you have two choices: either shoot 60i and use a program like DVFilm Maker or Graeme Nattress' filters, or shoot CineFrame 25 and then slow it down by 4%, and adjust the pitch of all your audio.

Both methods involve compromises. Using 60i->24p will cost some resolution, but perhaps not as much as CF25, and will leave your audio alone. Using CF25 will give you consistent resolution, and may (MAY) result in more efficient MPEG-2 compression, plus will mean one less trip through the compression engine. However you'll have to convert your footage and your audio to the new frame rate.

Man, I sure wish Panasonic or JVC would just release their camera, so all this questioning and controversy could be settled definitively one way or the other.
 
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