Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=SergejIvanovits link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=30#35 date=01/31/05 at 08:52:20]Jimerson, you are bashing me again with your ntsc 24p/60i in i a Sony HDV 1080i interlaced section. I'm not interested. [/quote]

Then stop bringing it UP . . .
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

I can't figure out why people out there are still posting video in Windows Media. We all know it's not that good, doesn't play well on all computers, and in the case of this interview if your DSL is not so fast, it just stops after a few seconds. We all know that Quicktime with Sorenson codec is superior and plays well on all machines. I'm not even going to bother anymore with trying to play defective Windows Media video. Not to mention that it's typical, they probably encode with Windows Media Encoder so no cropping takes place and the whole thing just looks ugly.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Michael_Bott link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=30#33 date=01/31/05 at 06:24:56]
It was as much a suprise to me as anyone to read in Barry and Jarred's side by side of the DVX/XL2/F1 that there was no advantage in the F1's resolution by the time the footage got down to DVD. And I think they do have the equipment and knowledge to "do it right". Up until that point, I too was assuming that I was going to have to go the HDV route NOW in order to keep my work competetive. My understanding at this time is that nobody's going to notice the difference in MY work until 5 years down the line. Nobody is debunking HDV - I'm certainly not - all I'm saying is that for me and for some others there's no rush.[/quote]

I also read the review and awhile back and agree that they have done an excellent job at describing camera layouts pro/cons for each as well as functionality and tradermarks vs each models.

One observation I bring to the table is this... it is done with a slight favor push (albeit very minor) to SD vs HD. I am actually quite glad that sony did not implement a true 24P system in their new cams...stubborn Sony seems to have a reason (asides from ticking off indies... though it would appear that way, and a 5,000 dollar cam eating up their F900 from comments like Jody's) and I'm sure they will conform eventually. (there trying to fake it so they obviously see and are aware of it's relevance).. And really every company seems to conform (give in, however you see it) eventually due to consumer trend push... but it does take time. If it have had a true 720 24P HD switch, I wonder what indies would think? I don't think everyone would be on the Sony bandwagon but the 24P reason wouldn't hold as much weight for the DVX or the XL2 especially since they are both SD.

A few things I think you guys could have drawn more attention too (with all do respect Jarred and Barry, not saying the review isn't thorough... cause it is, and your hard work is very much appreciated) is that... while true, internally downconverted Sony out firewire from FX1/Z1 may not produce the desired "flim" look that one has become accustomed to from the DVX, however I think even if sony had implemented a 24P switch (to record in native 720P at 24P... cause I'm sure they could if they wanted too... they just put PAL and NTSC in one unit) from what I gather it would seem at though the cine gamma and other setting are now a top priority (which is what seems to be the XL2 con/push to DVX) Comments like in the article "You could maybe hack-job it with post effects to make it somewhat filmic, but you'll be sacrificing resolution every step of the way" while in a sense a correct statment, are pretty srong words. I have a hard time believing that no one shooting 24P never does any color correction or any other manipulation to the final video shot with DXV XL2 or FX1/Z1. (not talking about frame interpolation here cause the F900 does 24P and I doubt any would go on record saying the DVX rivals it's image)
In all honesty, for those of you who haven't seen SD on HD sets... it really isn't pretty. Am I saying buy the sony? Nope, but at this point I agree more with the wait theory from some as the DVX may not be the right choice if you are in market soon either. (Please understand moderators... I'm not dissin' the DVX here :) )
Out of the box the DVX100 looks more "film like"... ok fair enough. Is 24P the only thing that makes it look film like?... from the comments I gather here this seems to be a mixed reaction... some say yes, some say no. (and of course again everything is realitive...) DVX gives you lots of other option aside from 24P which also are great strenghts to the camera, great latitude, gamma settings, etc. which also come into play when creating the film look (less often I might add from users here). From comments that I see though like "WE want 24P" and other things, I think if panasonic announced a 24P 720 HD model in the price range, a lot of these SD vs HD downres debates would no longer be relevant... (unless of course you then become sour cause you just bougth the DVX and feel it is outdated cause it doesn't have 24P HD, the next new buzz :) ) And in a "sour grapes sort of way" :) I hope Panasonic does release it (HDV or DVCPRO HD... obviously another debate) in a DVX Price range and then phases out the DVX. (I don't think they will do this but.. let's all keep a close eye on PD170 sales in a couple months!)

If people like Jody are using the new Sony's and drawing comparisons to the F900 (he also drew comparison to the DVX and the XL2 and the PD150.. and the JVC kind of without sayin' it out loud... kind of almost bashed 720P too indirectly... "only 720") it will be interesting to see the new Panasonic 720 24P HD war cause it appears inevitable for some reason there will be one. (depending on if you find yourself in the brand loyal category). Once Panasonic releases the their new HD cam in this price range, I wonder who will be the first to go on record claiming the DVX and SD is dead? ...cause I'm sure they will release the cam looooooong before HD-DVD/BlueRay becomes mainstream or rivals DVD as top delievery format. ( which seems to the front running justification at the moment to stay SD)

I do believe HD is the new buzz... (HDV)
I do believe 24P is also a buzz...
I do believe 24P HD will be the next new buzz and I say it's all good and when the new buzz comes along, this is one guy who will be "jumping on the buzz bandwagon" (pardon the term.. it's used light heartedly :) ) I'm not discrediting any of these features significance or what they accomplish refering to them as buzz words but if we all take a step back... I'm sure that we all agree both camps are producing great products at a great dollar value regardless of your preference. This IS something to be excited about... and now you don't need to mortgage your house anymore! (another plus) and at this price point it's almost like flip a coin... if investing in new gear set's you back to the stone age... you have made the wrong decision. The decision to wait is neither good nor bad... it is what it is. You have the right to do either.

I can't wait until the Steve Jobs and the Jody's of the world start using the new Panasonic HD model when it comes out... it could get a little bit nasty! ;D
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

I'm sure that we all agree both camps are producing great products at a great dollar value regardless of your preference
Click to expand...

I haven't seen enough from the Sony to agree to that.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=princigalli link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=30#41 date=01/31/05 at 10:18:51]I can't figure out why people out there are still posting video in Windows Media. We all know it's not that good, doesn't play well on all computers,....
....so no cropping takes place and the whole thing just looks ugly.[/quote]

I think the post is more of what you think about his comments but again everything is relative... (someone did choose window medias for one reason or another to compress the clip, Another debate potentially for another thread? ;D)
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=30#42 date=01/31/05 at 10:22:41]

I do believe HD is the new buzz... (HDV)
I do believe 24P is also a buzz...
I do believe 24P HD will be the next new buzz [/quote]

What about 25p? My DVX can't do 24p. The FX1 does 25cf. I could use the Z1E in 24cf but 25 cf is better.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Vegas or Snell & Wilcox product? Vegas, right? It's not the right equipment. And Berry's goal was to make a test for a regular DVXuser with 1 DVX and Vegas, not for a pro productions company.
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I am a professional and I use Vegas. For me the test is valid.

Barry, can you make this clearer - based on your experience with the side-by-side?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Michael_Bott link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#46 date=01/31/05 at 11:07:38]
I am a professional and I use Vegas. For me the test is valid.
[/quote]

Do you use Vegas for your edit needs or as a crossconverter? I just can't understand why studios are buying HD5400, HD2300 or HD 6300.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=SergejIvanovits link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#47 date=01/31/05 at 11:26:36]

Do you use Vegas for your edit needs or as a crossconverter? I just can't understand why studios are buying HD5400, HD2300 or HD 6300. [/quote]
Edit. Workflow = DVX>Vegas>Mainconcept>DVDA/Encore.

I have just been re-reading Barry and Jarred's review. In it Barry says they downrezzed the F1 footage to SD to get the comparison. Does that mean they never put F1 HDV footage on the timeline? In other words, is there a possibility that the extra Z1/F1 resolution might shine through on DVD if encoded from an HDV Vegas timeline? Need to know ... ::)
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Nothing wrong with Berry's review. His goal was to come up with a test for a general DVX user, a 1 DVX + Vegas ( or other NLE) and give an answere why a DVX user should or should not replace the DVX with a HDV camcorder. I didn't like those pictures in the test.
DVXandFX1inTimesSquare%20(Medium).jpg
I would not buy my DVX again just because of this picture. Anyway, I 'm agree with the test. A user with 1 camcorder (dvx or Xl2) + 1 pc/nle should not buy this if they want to make better DVDs with the equipment they have.

Jody was using the Z1U and a SRW-1 to capture the footage I guess. And at the end they use some kind of sofisticated process to make all footages the same look.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Michael_Bott link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#48 date=01/31/05 at 12:01:11]
Edit. Workflow = DVX>Vegas>Mainconcept>DVDA/Encore.
I have just been re-reading Barry and Jarred's review. In it Barry says they downrezzed the F1 footage to SD to get the comparison. Does that mean they never put F1 HDV footage on the timeline? In other words, is there a possibility that the extra Z1/F1 resolution might shine through on DVD if encoded from an HDV Vegas timeline? Need to know ...  ::)[/quote]

Excellent question Micheal... I was actually thinking the same thing just as I re read the review again. Clearly the FX1/Z1 downrez'd internally through the cam sent to the computer as DV firewire shows no significant resolution deal breaking results. Assuming that this is how the review was done (correct us guys if were wrong), what about captured HDV software downrez'd to SD DVD compatible MPEG2? 16x9 and/or 4x3. (capable now the the Z1) You have to wonder...

My main concern would be HDV top layer (odd feild first) vs DV's/mpeg2's lower frame first (even field) processing. Can anyone make this test a reality?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=Michael_Bott link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#48 date=01/31/05 at 12:01:11] Does that mean they never put F1 HDV footage on the timeline? [/quote]
We did it in the way that would make the FX1 look the best.  We used the original raw FX1 .m2t transport stream, directly captured from the firewire, on the timeline.  Vegas was used to do the re-size, using "best" video quality.  Doing it this way let the original high-resolution source footage be used for the test, and also avoided the 4:2:0->4:1:1->4:2:0 colorspace conversion that would have been necessary if we had used the camera to do the downrezzing.

Obviously we didn't use a Snell & Wilcox... we were emulating what a desktop video producer would do.  Which is why we used the software resizing application.  

In other words, is there a possibility that the extra Z1/F1 resolution might shine through on DVD if encoded from an HDV Vegas timeline? Need to know ... ::)
Click to expand...
It is not possible.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#50 date=01/31/05 at 13:17:24]what about captured HDV software downrez'd to SD DVD compatible MPEG2?  16x9 and/or 4x3. (capable now the the Z1)  You have to wonder...
[/quote]No need to wonder... that's what we did.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=The_Video_Guy link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=30#42 date=01/31/05 at 10:22:41]If it have had a true 720 24P HD switch, I wonder what indies would think?[/quote]
They would think "this is the single greatest prosumer camcorder ever released."

Doesn't mean there wouldn't be room for improvement (the HDV codec leaves a *lot* of room for improvement) but it would have addressed and overcome almost everyone's hesitations.

Comments like in the article "You could maybe hack-job it with post effects to make it somewhat filmic, but you'll be sacrificing resolution every step of the way" while in a sense a correct statment, are pretty srong words.
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I have no problem with using "strong" words when the statement is correct. It's when people go tossing around strong/harsh words and they're *wrong* that I have a problem with it. It is undeniable that converting 60i to 24p is going to a) cost resolution, and b) introduce motion artifacts that would not be there had the footage been shot at a 24hz frame rate in the first place.

I have a hard time believing that no one shooting 24P never does any color correction or any other manipulation to the final video shot with DXV XL2 or FX1/Z1.
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For some shooters, every frame of 24P footage gets color corrected, etc. But that doesn't affect vertical resolution or motion artifacts! It may introduce a recompression, but DV with a good codec is fairly transparent on recompression, something that cannot be said for MPEG-2.

(not talking about frame interpolation here cause the F900 does 24P and I doubt any would go on record saying the DVX rivals it's image)
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Of course the DVX doesn't rival the F900. Not sure what the argument here is... the quote you're referencing was strictly and only referring to 60i->24p frame conversion and how that will sacrifice resolution. What does that have to do with color correcting, etc?

In all honesty, for those of you who haven't seen SD on HD sets... it really isn't pretty.
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Depends on the set. If you're watching it on an LCD, then yes, it will look horrible. If you're watching on a multiscanning CRT, it'll look as good as it would on an SDTV set. And most out there haven't seen SD on an HD set because very few people (comparatively) even HAVE HDTV sets.

Out of the box the DVX100 looks more "film like"... ok fair enough. Is 24P the only thing that makes it look film like?...
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It is by far the most important factor. The color and gamma response help, but the 24P factor is the most important.

From comments that I see though like "WE want 24P" and other things, I think if panasonic announced a 24P 720 HD model in the price range, a lot of these SD vs HD downres debates would no longer be relevant...
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IF all other things are equal, and this new camera offers all the same gamma curves and whatever, AND if the footage survives the downrez process to SD looking as sharp as DVX footage, then yes, all this debate would be irrelevant.

The point is, we want something that produces the best-looking content for who's going to see it. And they're going to see it on DVD, for the next few years.

(unless of course you then become sour cause you just bougth the DVX and feel it is outdated cause it doesn't have 24P HD, the next new buzz :) )
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Oh, that's always a possibility for some. For those "in the business", using their cameras for business purposes, it shouldn't be the case at all... just sell, upgrade, and move on. But for those who scrimp and stretch and save and can't really afford a camera but buy it anyway... yes, I think we'd hear much grumbling from them. And ... well, that's the price you pay for buying technology, especially in something like a camcorder where the evolution is so quick. Same griping you hear from gamers when they buy "the ultimate gaming rig" and then a couple of months later Intel doubles the FSB speed or whatever...

And in a "sour grapes sort of way" :) I hope Panasonic does release it (HDV or DVCPRO HD... obviously another debate) in a DVX Price range and then phases out the DVX.
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They will and they won't. They'll release the new camera, yes, but that won't necessarily mean the end of the DVX... depends on the price range. The PD170 isn't really a fair comparison, because the DVX is already eating the PD170's lunch. If there was no such thing as a DVX, your statement about watching PD170 sales would be more accurate. But if Panasonic introduces a new $6,000 camcorder, I don't think it'll kill off the DVX, there'll be plenty of room for a ~$3000 camera in that lineup (just like there are many, many $1000-$1500 cameras in the Panasonic lineup too!)

it will be interesting to see the new Panasonic 720 24P HD war cause it appears inevitable for some reason there will be one. (depending on if you find yourself in the brand loyal category)
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Exactly. Brand bigots will engagte in brand bigotry, now and for always. But among actual professionals, there's no need for there to be such a war. The choice will be clear, as Sony intended it when they said "the choice is now clear: you can have HD 60i, or you can have 24p". Once Panasoinc responds, the choice will be even more clear: you can have 60i, with Sony, or you can have 24P (and perhaps much more, who knows...) with Panasonic. Choice is good.

Once Panasonic releases the their new HD cam in this price range, I wonder who will be the first to go on record claiming the DVX and SD is dead?
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Anyone proclaiming that 93% of the market is "dead" would be an idiot. I'll proclaim SD "dead" when the US quits broadcasting it, Europe quits broadcasting it, and consumers quit buying programming for it.

I'm sure that we all agree both camps are producing great products at a great dollar value regardless of your preference. This IS something to be excited about... and now you don't need to mortgage your house anymore!
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With that, I do agree. I think my main frustration is that it seems like EVERYONE who is buying an FX1 is wanting to be an indie filmmaker, and they're all talking about using European models for CF25, or buying the Z1 for filmmaking, or for using CF25 to get a "film look"... and that's just... silly. SILLY. USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB. Wait a few months, and JVC and Panasonic will likely release genuine 24P products that will make all this CineFrame/60i->24p talk sound like the silliness that it is. Patience, young grasshoppers, and you will likely be rewarded. There is no reason to put up with these post-hack-workarounds, unless you ABSOLUTELY MUST release your product today, in HD.
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Barry wrote: "Wait a few months, and JVC and Panasonic will likely release genuine 24P products that will make all this CineFrame/60i->24p talk sound like the silliness that it is.  Patience, young grasshoppers, and you will likely be rewarded".  

Barry I'm not getting any younger. I sure hope Panasonic hurrys up!!
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Well i doubt that they will be at the same price as this sony's HDV cams if they are true 24p, this just cant be beacuse who would want to buy the pro HD cams then? pretty much the companies will undercut themselfs, and i doubt anyone wants to drop the axe upon themselfs. Specially when the HD format is being picked up by all the major studios and broadcasting companies for low cost indi's and features. In my opnion I doubt it. :-/
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

THank you Barry for your clarification about the treatment of the F1 footage. Your attentiveness and all the contributions here help folk like me make purchase decisions based in wisdom rather than panic. :)
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Why would he shoot in CF 25 instead of CF 24?
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (Z1)

[quote author=AndrewDavis link=board=sony;num=1107056779;start=45#57 date=02/01/05 at 03:22:07]Why would he shoot in CF 25 instead of CF 24?[/quote]
I think he's shooting for European broadcast so shooting PAL avoids NTSC pulldown motion artefacts. But that's only a guess ...
 
Re: Jody Eldred interview at Sundance (re: Z1)

Everyone and anyone would shoot CF25 instead of CF24. CF24 is a jumbled mess, completely useless for any serious practical purpose. It's a horrible implementation of a lame 24p simulation, a complete joke. CF25, on the other hand, is a de-interlaced version of 50i, giving a good simulation of 25p, although lower in resolution (about the same vertical resolution as a PAL DVX or XL2). So it looks "right", something CF24 can never claim.
 
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