It's official, now the owner of an FS700....

[Rick Burnett]

Of course, I do believe you need an HXR-IFR5 module as well which is rumored to be $2k I think? So that puts us at ~$9700 to record 4K out of the FS700? No thanks. I'll just wait for something else at that price point. That's more than the camera cost me with media.

 

[SergeSmArt]

Of course, which many people will probably forget, the footage WILL be noisier. If it's raw, it's not going to go through Sony's REALLY GOOD noise reduction algorithms.

Why do you think "footage WILL be noisier" ?? as I understand, now we get only 1920 X1080 from the same sensor, but in RAW-mode we gonna get REAL 4K resolution.... in 12 bits
... I cannot imagine how it will be "not much better" ..maybe I'm wrong, but I believe ..for just $10K - it WILL BE ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC !

 

[SergeSmArt]

Of course, I do believe you need an HXR-IFR5 module as well which is rumored to be $2k I think? So that puts us at ~$9700 to record 4K out of the FS700? No thanks. I'll just wait for something else at that price point. That's more than the camera cost me with media.

I don't know, but when I look to all my equipment set ( Camera, lenses, Tripods, Crane/Jib, Skater, Slider, Set of Lights, Flex Track, Computer, Projector, etc.. total around $30K and will be even more with new lenses soon ) the cost of RAW option don't looks so hi for me .. a specially when I compare it to RED-camera option - RED Epic is too expensive, RED-Scarlet is too limited by frame size in different speed, and both of them are not as FLEXIBLE as FS-700: with RED you can shoot ONLY in RAW, what is not always needed for my clients...
But with FS-700 I can shoot simple projects for less money and will have an option to do serious work for clients who NEED RAW ..so ? Why someone will buy Zeiss lenses for $4000-$5000 each, and don't shoot RAW ??

 

[Rick Burnett]

That's because we all have different price points. For me 4K at $9k is money spent in a direction that is not as important to me. With $9k I'd rather invest in say a better tripod, better/more lenses, more lighting, etc.

As far as noisy footage, it's all a matter of processing. In the end you will get a better image because you can make the decisions of noise filtering algorithm, downsample, debayer, compression, in post. However, what you see out of the RAW sensor is going to be RAW and unprocessed, so it's not going to look as good in some ways initially when pixel peeping. There are a lot of newer people just getting into these new cameras that don't know how to compare apples to oranges. It's like when I see people look at RAW Red footage and tell me how bad it is, yet, not realize that the Red workflow is expecting you to use image processing in post and not what is in the camera (like sharpening, noise reduction, etc).

I look at this situation this way; as time goes on one of two things will happen:

1) The price of the 4K recording option will naturally drop, mostly in used sales. Look how cheap you can get an F3 now. As cameras begin to record 4K internally, those external options will get cheaper.

2) Someone will create a 3rd party solution. Maybe it will be better priced with probably either a lack of features, other hidden costs, or performance hits.

But even beyond that, given we shoot with such a small crew, I've got to allocate money for other expenses, like the sound studio I am currently building, which is turning out to be quite pricy. Sound proofing a room is NOT cheap!

 

[SergeSmArt]

That's because we all have different price points. For me 4K at $9k is money spent in a direction that is not as important to me. With $9k I'd rather invest in say a better tripod, better/more lenses, more lighting, etc.

As far as noisy footage, it's all a matter of processing. In the end you will get a better image because you can make the decisions of noise filtering algorithm, downsample, debayer, compression, in post. However, what you see out of the RAW sensor is going to be RAW and unprocessed, so it's not going to look as good in some ways initially when pixel peeping. There are a lot of newer people just getting into these new cameras that don't know how to compare apples to oranges. It's like when I see people look at RAW Red footage and tell me how bad it is, yet, not realize that the Red workflow is expecting you to use image processing in post and not what is in the camera (like sharpening, noise reduction, etc).

I look at this situation this way; as time goes on one of two things will happen:

1) The price of the 4K recording option will naturally drop, mostly in used sales. Look how cheap you can get an F3 now. As cameras begin to record 4K internally, those external options will get cheaper.

2) Someone will create a 3rd party solution. Maybe it will be better priced with probably either a lack of features, other hidden costs, or performance hits.

But even beyond that, given we shoot with such a small crew, I've got to allocate money for other expenses, like the sound studio I am currently building, which is turning out to be quite pricy. Sound proofing a room is NOT cheap!

When I look at RAW Red footage I know what will be FINAL result after GRADING - that's what is really matter ... ...and I know that RAW workflow is very complicated and expansive! ...as well as sound proofing
But this it the point: I see the reason to invest in RAW, as I don't need to invest in Sound or RAW Post Production at all - I never do it myself , I'm only shoot ... - my clients do what ever they want with my footage ...

 

[Rick Burnett]

That's my point though, we have different requirements. I am not shooting for clients, I am shooting for our own productions only, so we have to worry about ALL aspects. For instance, I don't edit, but I do the 3D modeling, animation, compositing, after we are done shooting. I then help with foley, songs, sound in general, mixing, ADR etc. So for me, the camera is a part of a much larger equation for me, which is why I held off on buying it for so long.

I mean, our first episode of Mario Warfare has over 2.8 Million hits now. I don't recall anyone complaining about the visuals in any of the comments. Of course, I tried to shoot where I knew the FS100 very well. Where I was having more trouble was outside shots. With a combination of INSANE sensitivity and the color-shift issues, it just made it more tricky for me. This is why 4K is really not even on my radar at the moment. I think it's cool I have a possible path in the future if I need it *OR* if I need to rent it for a weekend say if I am doing a lot of green-screen work for our material, but as an investment, makes little sense.

One of the things I dislike the most is just how huge of an add-on that is. For some people with complicated rigs that probably doesn't matter, but for me, after building my camera up to be crazy complicated on a shoulder rig, I've reduced it down to just what the camera came with and I couldn't be happier (minus adapter and lens of course). Shooting is so much fun with the FS now. I was seriously overcomplicating what I was doing.

Our requirements are pretty straightforward. Narrative work with a focus on martial arts and gun-kata mostly. We use a lot of found light, but also bring lights in case we have an impossible situation. And we write a lot of fluid narrative work that we change on the fly to match our locations. But, these requirements are VERY different probably than a lot of people here who have different situations where they shoot.

And for ANYONE else, I am definitely not making a judgement call on investing in RAW, this is absolutely just related to my situation. There are people I know that are investing into the BM camera because of it's raw capability, but for me, I cannot take the hit on rolling shutter. I need to be able to move my camera a bit more.

 

[vanvideo]

Darn it, now you've got me wanting to upgrade from my FS100.

I've gotten a few requests for an FS700 already this year, but I was able to convince them to use the FS100. It would be nice to give a client what they ask for.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Quick update: So last weekend we had rain all weekend so we worked on choreography for our next episode. This was nice because I was able to take time to get to know the camera better. Here are my thoughts:

(1): There is ZERO question, cinegamma is WAY better. I used CINE1 and CINE3 for most of my tests. I also compared my footage to the footage I shot for episodes 1 and 2 of our series and it absolutely validated my purchase. The reds are tamed and getting good skin tones is NO effort at all. It looks fantastic.

(2): Whomever at Sony decided to put the zoom assit on the handle, THANK YOU. This was awesome. I didn't have to fiddle around for the button on the side like the FS100.

(3): The handle is ROCK SOLID. Not that I had too much trouble with the old setup, but now that I have used the new setup, it's great.

(4): I used the ND and don't know how I lived without it!

(5): Battery life is a little worse. Also, I wish I could shut the LED that states between video and still mode. Why this couldn't just be on the screen is beyond me.

(6): Sensitivity does seem to be a bit less than the FS100, but nothing I care about. It's still SO clean.

(7): Latitude in the CINE modes is amazing. Wow, there is A LOT of detail in the image. More than I expected.

(8): Rolling shutter looks improved to me. I have not tested it mathematically yet, but in the tests I did, it was great. Although I didn't have much trouble with the FS100 in that regard.

(9): Extremely high contrast edges will alias and get some interesting color artifacts. Same as FS100 to me, and hardly happens.

(10): I had NO sensor reflection issues. This made me VERY happy. I was getting a lot on the FS100 (and the AF100).

(11): The weight difference I did not notice, even though I know it's a pound heavier.

(12): Buttons sticking out a little more is VERY nice.

(13): I felt the LCD color depth is less than the FS100. It's something I saw on the SmallHD DPx when I owned it. In the blacks I see some sort of pattern that does not show in the final footage. It's like a fixed pattern that I think indicates a lower bit depth panel. Doesn't really bother me too much, but thought I'd mention it.

(14): I used both the Metabones MkI and Speedbooster adapters. The Speedbooster worked great. The MkI is having problems communicating with my Tokina and Sigma lenses, but no issue with the Canon lenses. Not sure what the problem is. I am going to go to a MkII adapter very shortly and trying to figure out what to do with the MkI for a shoot this weekend.

(15): I shot 240FPS which looked amazing. 960FPS was VERY noisy for me with lots of artifacts. It was still neat though. I shot inside so light flickering was a problem, but you all warned me of that. We just wanted to see what a face looked like punched in slow mo and it was very neat!

(16): Camera bootup felt a little longer than the FS100. Also, I wish when switching from 24P to 60P was faster. (Not talking about S&Q mode).

So yeah, at the end of the day, this is a no brainer and my FS100 is on eBay right now. It was a great camera, but the FS700 is THAT much better to me.

 

[brotherian]

Hi Rick,

Care to share a pic of your FS700 rig/setup as you've got it now? If you're very handheld are you using an evf? Have you relocated the handgrip to somewhere more comfortable if it's up on the shoulder? Cheers Rick.

Oh, and I saw a bit of your Mario Warfare series; such a great idea for a novel treatment of Mario World!

 

[Rick Burnett]

Hi Rick,

Care to share a pic of your FS700 rig/setup as you've got it now? If you're very handheld are you using an evf? Have you relocated the handgrip to somewhere more comfortable if it's up on the shoulder? Cheers Rick.

Oh, and I saw a bit of your Mario Warfare series; such a great idea for a novel treatment of Mario World!

Glad you like our series! We are having a lot of fun with it.

As for setup, I am using the camera without anything attached to it. At first with the FS100 I built about 5 different systems to hold it and I always felt it was either too heavy or too awkward. I realized I have a very specific way I like to shoot. I put the handle into the upright position so the record button is facing straight up. The heat sink is where the thumb of my other hand goes and I cradle the camera. I do not use any other monitor except for when I am working with the crane (which I have not done yet with the FS700, that's coming up next weekend).

Here's a behind the scenes when I was using the FS100. It shows the handle position which I am using the same. With the new top handle on the FS700, I removed it, and then use the new microphone attachment on the shoe that is exposed below the handle. Given the new microphone holder attaches to this, I didn't have to use my Rode mic holder like I did on the FS100. Also, this picture is showing me use a Blackbird with the FS100. I have not done this with the FS700 yet.

Lastly, B+H has a deal of $50 off when you buy two 970 batteries which are supposed to last 12 hours each (so $199 for two) so I just ordered two of them.



This second photo, although I am not holding the camera as I normally do, this shows how I shoot with the FS100/FS700. I am 6'4" so getting the camera lower is important for me.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Okay, just got done with two full days of shooting the FS700 in the woods. I can say WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that the FS700 colors with the CINE gamma are absolutely better than the FS100 in every way. I am literally blown away with the latitude and highlight handling I am getting. Everything I shot was just spot on for the color I wanted. I left the white balance on 4700K and never needed to change it.

One really interesting thing for me is that there is so much detail in the blacks when I am exposing for skin. We had a 5Dm3 with us as well shooting and it was interesting to see how much more latitude we were getting on the FS700. I will say this though, we went from a 7D to 5Dm3 and the difference between both was really easy to see. Th 5Dm3 was holding A LOT more detail. The colors out of it were a more crushed obviously than the FS700.

If I were to say one thing, the build in LCD seems to be less saturated than the actual colors one I off-loaded all the footage. Not by a huge amount. I'm so used to a more crushed gamma that getting exposure just right took me a little bit to get exactly right, but after two days, I am MUCH more comfortable.

I can't believe I waited so long to get the FS700.

For those with an FS100 that are not terribly happy with the colors, if you love everything else about the FS100 then I can say, it's worth the leap. I don't see that "Sony" look that I've seen on other cameras. My shots are EXTREMELY neutral meaning that the colors look completely natural. (I think I set saturation to -2).

I still contend that the FS100 has some heavy sensitivity to red, which is now gone.

I will say as well, the battery does run out a bit quicker. I've been able to test it more now. I moved to the larger batteries which definitely helps. 2 large batteries will cover more than a whole day. Shooting from 10am to 6pm I used one large and one medium battery (770 is the medium, 970 is the large) and still have about half the 770 available when I stopped filming).

 

[Gene Sung]

Glad you like our series! We are having a lot of fun with it.

As for setup, I am using the camera without anything attached to it. At first with the FS100 I built about 5 different systems to hold it and I always felt it was either too heavy or too awkward. I realized I have a very specific way I like to shoot. I put the handle into the upright position so the record button is facing straight up. The heat sink is where the thumb of my other hand goes and I cradle the camera. I do not use any other monitor except for when I am working with the crane (which I have not done yet with the FS700, that's coming up next weekend).

Great to hear Rick. I never owned an FS100, but from the numerous Vimeo videos, I always thought the FS700 had a different look but you just confirmed it.

I read about how you hand hold everything, and it's great to see that someone else, besides myself does the same thing. At first, I made a shoulder rig but I hate shooting with a shoulder rig because I feel like you get these shots that are always from the same angle - very TV news like. I saw how James Miller just shortened the viewfinder and cradled it so I tried that and I LOVE it. You just get so many more angles when you shoot like that.

But I tend to shoot more staged stuff and I can see how long shots / event type shooting a shoulder rig would be great.

Not sure if you tried this yet, but I use my right hand and hold the camera from underneath on the front half and my left hand on the focus ring. Combine that with a shortened EVF loupe and the camera is so stable and light for handheld, even eye level shots are no problem / no fatigue when supported on the bottom. I don't even use the side hand grip anymore as I find it's very tiring to shoot eye level handheld when holding the grip.

Anyways, thanks for the report. Makes me even more stoked on this camera.

 

[Chad N]

Great to read your impressions, Rick. Which Cinegammas and settings are you enjoying? I thought you said earlier that you were using Cinegamma 3 sometimes. I really like that, seems to be a nice balance between highlight and shadow detail. Only setting i change is to bring the detail down to -2. Of course, i'll use Cinegamma 1 on occasion, usually in low light. I wonder if i'm really missing out by not going with Cinegamma 4 very often. I suppose every situation calls for something different, but i'm still pretty new to all this.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I don't have my camera with me at the moment, but I believe these are the settings I used:

"Large DR PP"
Cine 4
Knee 80
Slope 3
Detail -2
Color Mode - Cinema / 6
Black Middle / 0
Color Level +2

As for holding the camera, I am so used to focusing with my left hand I doubt I'd be able to switch easily, but I'll try that all the same. I rotate the handle so the record button is straight up and I've REALLY liked this setup. My left hand cradles the camera with my thumb on the heat sink, or, I slide the hand under the camera below the lens so I can rack focus if I need.

In reviewing some of my footage, I am seeing one issue that I need to work on. This same thing happens with the FS100 as well, and I've see it on C300 footage. Everyone is aware of it so it isn't something new, but the whole issue of aliasing on blown out lights, like this:



The left edge of that light stair steps quite a bit. This wasn't any serious footage but I find I can recreate it VERY easily on any fluorescent light fixtures. When the camera is moving, you really see it. Sometimes it has purple fringing as well that is not chromatic aberration. For production shots I try not to have any situations like this so it hasn't been a problem yet, but just thought I should pass this along. My inclination is that it's with the compression code. Might be nice for me to hang a recorder off the back and see what I get out of it.

Rick

 

[thehadgi]

Have any slow-mo shots you wanna post up for us?

 

[Essami]

In reviewing some of my footage, I am seeing one issue that I need to work on. This same thing happens with the FS100 as well, and I've see it on C300 footage. Everyone is aware of it so it isn't something new, but the whole issue of aliasing on blown out lights

The left edge of that light stair steps quite a bit. This wasn't any serious footage but I find I can recreate it VERY easily on any fluorescent light fixtures. When the camera is moving, you really see it. Sometimes it has purple fringing as well that is not chromatic aberration. For production shots I try not to have any situations like this so it hasn't been a problem yet, but just thought I should pass this along. My inclination is that it's with the compression code. Might be nice for me to hang a recorder off the back and see what I get out of it.

Rick

Ive seen this as well on my footage. We should post a screen shot to Sony so they could fix it in firmware perhaps...

 

[paulcurtis]

View attachment 67772

The left edge of that light stair steps quite a bit. This wasn't any serious footage but I find I can recreate it VERY easily on any fluorescent light fixtures. When the camera is moving, you really see it. Sometimes it has purple fringing as well that is not chromatic aberration. For production shots I try not to have any situations like this so it hasn't been a problem yet, but just thought I should pass this along. My inclination is that it's with the compression code. Might be nice for me to hang a recorder off the back and see what I get out of it.

Rick

I'm not putting a downer on the 700 because i think it's an incredibly good performer overall. I do think as i've said before that the debayering or whatever is going on to downsample that sensor is not making the best of it. I've seen this quite a lot - and some very high contrast high frequency details that will sparkle around as well. Quite different to the 100 in that regard. I would guess that there is a very simple debayer followed by a simple scale down going on. Of course compared to the BMCC it's nothing - so all things are relative.

I've also seen fine vertical lines through the footage but i'm not convinced that's not the 4:2:2 sampling being visible on fine surfaces.

And there are also some parts of the lower luminance curve that get noisy all of a sudden.

I want *all* that sensor data and let me deal with it in post!! It will be interested to compare to the F5 in that regard, like for like, 4K for 4K

cheers
paul

 

[Essami]

Here's a reply from Sony when I sent them an inquiry about the two issues, color shifts and lag in monitor. It's definately something Sony considers acceptable at this price point. Kind of a bummer.

Dear Sami,

Thanks for contacting Sony Primesupport,

I will try my best to assist you with your queries and technical issues;

In regards to the HDMI lag, this is a characteristic for this device and a few other Sony cameras, there is micro delay between the camera and the monitor/tv when using the HDMI output. We have seen this here on our own cameras.

Concerning the image you sent, I’m afraid that this is yet another characteristic of the type of sensor these cameras use, this can be ameliorated by using the ND filter. This only occurs when there are straight lines or objects in the pathway of strong light sources, if you film window blinds with light coming through this phenomenon will be visible there as well.

Kind regards,

Marco C.
Engineer - PrimeSupport Operations

 

[stefanhuberfilms]

Boom! I also made the transition from my 7D and HVX200 to the FS700. It arrived last Thursday so i was very happy to bring it to a snowboard shoot last weekend. What can i say, its a great camera, totally blown away by the quality! i will report back soon with the finished recap of the weekend...

What do you guys think about the different Cinegammas, currently i'm shooting CINE4, which seems a bit noisy to me when shooting slowmotion - any thoughts? Is there a big difference in terms of DR when using CINE1 - any recommendations? The PP i was using was alister chapmans DR profile btw...

regards

Stefan

PS: what do you think about the TC stopping free run when shooting slow motion?

 

[Sheldon Charron]

I'm a Canon fanboy. Over 25 years of using their gear. Now I'm moving up from DSLR filming to a real cinema camera and was comparing the c300 and c100, but the FS 700 looks like the way to go for me. I want to shoot some hunting and outdoor footage, and the slow motion and future 4k are two big issues for me. Gonna research a bit more than jump to it or possibly the F5.