FS7: It's a heavy beast !!!

[morgan_moore]

Mr Nola
Your statement is factually correct, however, wildly misses the context of the OP. Which is the need for a camera, lens and viewing system for use in solo operation in a 'RnG' environmnment for example at a red carpet event.

All the cameras you list (apart from the 2/3 ones) are 'crew cameras'

The OP was clearly not interested in a crew camera.

Now compared to the EX1 and its succesors one could gain different data set.
EX1 with included '400mm' lens is 5.6 lb
XF305 with included '400mm lens' is 6lb.
Z90 with included '350mm' lens is 2.4 lb
All will happily work on a 75mm (or smaller) tripod head.
All have enough DOF for one to maintain reasonable focus with a small, low resolution view finder

Now I dont know the weight of my Fs7, miller 100mm bowl, Dp502, 50-300 but it is a lot more than those by maybe a factor of four.
(I do own a 400 2.8 but have, unlike Doug, rejected that as 'ludicrous' for solo work)

Now many doc directors are used to issuing the command 'zoom in on that' to thier operator, and us dilligent operators therefore feel the need to be lensed to 300mm
The lack of DOF of the camera also put higher stresses on monitoring for focus etc etc. The monitoring devices eat more battery, The tripod heads are heavy. The lack of shoulder form (seen on a 2/3 camera) demands a seperate rig etc

True for any 'crew' camera of course.

So we have a (dangerous) situation where producers/directors/operators want the S35 or even Vista look, 4k 10bit, HFR, significant zoom, log 10bit aquisition and excellent lowlight performance, with the solo agility of an ex1 self shooter (many PDs started on these cameras and developed thier visual story telling on the shot sizes available from them).. and.. it does not exist without significantly stressing the solo operator.


Suggesting that that all this is possible just plays into the hands of producers with an eye on budget while stressing operators and is therefore dangerous practice that will negatively impact on the operator community (and thier not hired asistants) physically and financially.


The FS7 is actualy one of the least bad (possibly the best) crew camera to use solo. That, mixed with its attractive price point, excellent spec list, apparent low mass, apparent lack of need for a costly 'proper TV zoom lens' make it almost the most dangerous of the lot in the producer/crew 'battle'

I appeal to you sit on the the operators side in that battle, not the producers.

 

[Donny 123]

Don't shoot one man band.. if they insist or you need to .. then no .. production cant have the same amount of gear.. simple.. and the dir carries the tripod..

 

[JPNola]

Mr Nola
Your statement is factually correct, however, wildly misses the context of the OP. Which is the need for a camera, lens and viewing system for use in solo operation in a 'RnG' environmnment for example at a red carpet event.

I'm aware of the context. I've done exactly that type of work with an Fs7 rig. Over 200 days of it. Often long days. Might a more compact and more lightweight camera be better for such RnG -type work? Sure, it might well. But the notion that it isn't possible for more than 10 minutes with an Fs7 rig and the Fs7 is more of a tripod-camera that doesn't lend itself to shooting handheld for extended periods of time, well, that's just absurd. And I'm a bit surprised that you are supporting such silliness, Morgan. Especially since the thread-starter amounted to little more than trolling when you consider that someone came onto the Fs7 section of the forum only to slag the camera in numerous ways and declare they are purchasing something else instead. What was the purpose of such a post other than to provoke?



Your frustrations about having to work solo and having to carry multiple lenses are another issue from the issue of weight of the Sony Fs7. The OP cited the weight alone as a prohibitive factor to doing handheld with the Fs7. Surely you aren't agreeing that the Sony Fs7 is so heavy of a beast as to be unusable for more than 10 minutes of handheld and anyone wanting a camera for work off the tripod should look elsewhere.



edit: The Amira isn't only a "crew camera". I've many times seen shooters working solo with an Amira. In fact, the Amira was specifically designed to be an "ENG" camera that would be employed in the manner of news-shooters, sans any camera assistants. I've also seen shooters working solo with an Alexa mini. Paired with an ENG servo lens such as the Canon 17-120, those cameras become usable solo. You can live on the single lens for most shoots and have roughly the same reach as when using 2/3" ENG zooms. Same with the F5, C700 and several other cameras that I listed which are also usable beyond as a "crew camera".

 

[morgan_moore]

JP - neither of us are idiots - we both in effect know that an Amera or FS7 is a different thing to an EX1 or Z90.

Ive used the CN17 and it did not do what the director wanted so my 'big doc shoot' the thing was half on the camera and half not on the camera as we also used a zeiss 70-200 with a doubler and a zeiss macro too.

I beleive these three lenses could have been covered with a decent 2/3 zoom on a decent 2/3 camera - at cost to the prodCo


I dont not beleive the CN17 to be 'the answer' or I would have probably bought one.


I think one difference may be 'the pond' - if you check what the BBC is shooting on is is almost always FS7 - which I think is due to budget cuts that may not be so harsh on the US side of the pond. The issue of 'producer firendly solutions' may be more prevelant in the UK.

For me Im trying (out loud?) to work this all out, as I have not enjoyed some recent shoots - culminating last week (the hottest of the year!) in just leaving the thing at home and swapping to to my Ex1 for day two.

BUy Z90?
Demand a runner when shooting S35?
EVA1 and canon 18-80 and 70-200?
2/3 cam?
2/3 lens and GH5s?
PMW 280

I dunno the answer !
But am working on the compromises.
Good HD is fine
120 or 60P migght be fine - I can lose 150+ P
75 degree AOV I find hard to lose (thats S35-16mm, 2/3 4.7mm or vista 24mm)
10bit I like
T4 DOF I can certainly live with, no desire for 1.8 style bookah.

That seems to point to..
2/3 Cam
Some crazy rig with s16 zoom on MFT sensor

 

[Donny 123]

But you just wont get any work with a ⅔ inch camera.. its all gone s35 or more !.. they are door stops.. un less you shoot your own stuff.. for a freelancer turning up with a ⅔ inch ENG camera.. and Zoom..because its easier for you to use..and best for their production.. well guess the response .. you drive back home and the guy /girl with the fs7 gets the shoot.. its not reality .. the fs7 is totally fine as a hand held camera .. any camera is a pain all day long HH.. JP is totally correct here.. some shoots you just have to turn down.. for your back and your own pride .. these are cheap skate productions.. if they want a certain camera and gear but wont pay for a 2man crew.. or an audio guy who will help you .. dont take the job.. if only everyone would turn down those shoots they wouldn't exist ..

 

[stokstad]

Just had a long solo doc-shoot yesterday with a c300 mk2 handheld all day. Yes it was pretty harsh. Im thinking a good easyrig might have done the trick?

 

[abreu-canedo]

There are two elements of the conversation. One is looking just at camera operating, the other is looking at total weight of carrying the entire equipment package. Both are valid and interesting.

I personally don't think the FS7 is heavy at all. I did a doc gig with it and a Nikon 18-200 (not servo, but easy enough to operate) and just kept the thing on the shoulder all day. No problem for me. But I do work out and train my body for heavier cameras. I also had a lightweight tripod that we would keep around. But the director carried the tripod and I carried camera bag (camera, one lens, batteries camera mounted shotgun).

This was a good gig and I much preferred the FS7 as opposed to something that would not go on the shoulder as easily. For example, holding camera in front of you with small wrist muscles would get more tiring than a heavier rig on the shoulder.

I guess it's the trifecta of reasonable package, realistic and helpful producer/director, and actually making sure your body is prepared for the scale of jobs you want to do. Many overlook the ladder and blame cameras.

 

[LennyLevy]

2 observations here:

1- It never ceases to amaze me how the silliest comments on this forum always get the most responses such as this 17 page response to a post saying the FS7 is too heavy.

2 - If the handheld weight is a problem I suggest what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so with a wide variety of cameras . A monopod with a cheap manfrotto tilt head (often left loose) going into a fanny pack will reduce the strain enormously and triangulate the weight on your shoulder (or with a handheld smaller camera ) to add stability. For the FS7 I attach it to the rails with an easy and quick rails adapter on the tilt head. If its in your way when walking you just pull it out of the fanny pack. If you're low you can turn it to the side and support the camera with 2 hands. If its a long interview drop it to the ground. A huge reduction in shoulder and back strain with a tiny bit of reduction in mobility but well worth the limitations to me.

 

[nutmegger]

2 observations here:

2 - If the handheld weight is a problem I suggest what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so with a wide variety of cameras . A monopod with a cheap manfrotto tilt head (often left loose) going into a fanny pack will reduce the strain enormously and triangulate the weight on your shoulder (or with a handheld smaller camera ) to add stability. For the FS7 I attach it to the rails with an easy and quick rails adapter on the tilt head. If its in your way when walking you just pull it out of the fanny pack. If you're low you can turn it to the side and support the camera with 2 hands. If its a long interview drop it to the ground. A huge reduction in shoulder and back strain with a tiny bit of reduction in mobility but well worth the limitations to me.

Lenny, your monopod suggestion has merit.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/08/02/steadicam-air-25-review/

Enjoy.

 

[JPNola]

But you just wont get any work with a ⅔ inch camera.. its all gone s35 or more !

Not so. I had two jobs this week with 2/3" cameras. 10 thus far in 2018 with another 6 days booked in advance. NFL Network, ESPN, Weather Channel- the news-world still largely uses 2/3". The multi-camera live events segment of the industry does as well. And the Food Network competition show I am currently on uses 2/3" cameras as well. This past Monday we had 14 of them rolling at once. Sony F800's. I have no doubt that the 2/3" cameras owned by VER and other rental houses are still getting worked. Not as much as in the past, but still occupying a percentage of the industry.

 

[JPNola]

2 observations here:

1- It never ceases to amaze me how the silliest comments on this forum always get the most responses such as this 17 page response to a post saying the FS7 is too heavy.

2 - If the handheld weight is a problem I suggest what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so with a wide variety of cameras . A monopod with a cheap manfrotto tilt head (often left loose) going into a fanny pack will reduce the strain enormously and triangulate the weight on your shoulder (or with a handheld smaller camera ) to add stability. For the FS7 I attach it to the rails with an easy and quick rails adapter on the tilt head. If its in your way when walking you just pull it out of the fanny pack. If you're low you can turn it to the side and support the camera with 2 hands. If its a long interview drop it to the ground. A huge reduction in shoulder and back strain with a tiny bit of reduction in mobility but well worth the limitations to me.

There's also the Easy Rig, of course. And the SteadiGummy:

Ultimately, for me personally, I find that old-school sans any mechanical aid such as an Easy-Rig or mono-pod is best. I am more free as a shooter without any such aids. My shooting is better without them. And I'm willing to suffer for the art. :tongue:

 

[LennyLevy]

I am more free as a shooter without any such aids. My shooting is better without them. And I'm willing to suffer for the art. :tongue:

I understand that in principle and if it works for you great. I'm too wimpy.

I guess what I do is a low tech version of the steadyGum and from the looks of it a fanny pack might be more stable but since I haven't tried the steady gum I don't know. I don't like the easyrig too much. Adds a lot of weight to your lower back and its damn dangerous whenever you take it off. Many years ago I did a careful comparison of easy rig footage to my ordinary handheld and every case the handheld was noticeably more stable than the easy rig, but other people may have different results.

Air Monopod looks fine for a locked off shot but its way too big to work for handheld which makes it pretty inflexible for running around with. Also I think a monopod is awful without a head to correct for the tilt of the monopod itself , that's why I like just a simple light manfrotto tilt heads.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Ultimately, for me personally, I find that old-school sans any mechanical aid such as an Easy-Rig or mono-pod is best. I am more free as a shooter without any such aids. My shooting is better without them. And I'm willing to suffer for the art. :tongue:

Absolutely. If you can't carry around a 2/3" ENG camera on your shoulder for a day perhaps it is time to consider another line of work. The guy in the image above would be a laughing stock on every shoot I have worked on. Maybe some support might be helpful with an ungainly cine camera, but an ENG camera? I weep for our industry if this is what we have come to.

 

[cyvideo]

That seems to point to..
2/3 Cam
Some crazy rig with s16 zoom on MFT sensor

This perennial problem lives on. There is no perfect answer is there.

For my range of work that covers everything from stage shows to sports to docos and corporate work I have ended up with a number of cameras. I've had to because any one camera has its limitations for certain types of jobs. I disagree with the comment there is little work for 2/3" cameras. For a lot of TV work XDCam MPEG-2 and 2/3" is still one of the most requested formats. The XDCam disc cam still gets asked for frequently for TV sports and stage work where a decent servo zoom is a must. Where the client supplies discs and you just hand them back at the end of the shoot the old XDCam is hard to beat. Next is an old and trusty but good condition EX3 that stands in well for long corporate seminar type shoots and big screen feeds. Runs forever on a 'V' lock battery and 440 minutes on two 64GB cards. I also use this with an ACM-21 with 18 and 22 x B4 lenses. 2/3" glass gives you a 1.375 crop on a 1/2" chip so the 22 x becomes a 30 x and I haven't needed longer. It outputs 10-bit 422 to ProRes on an Atomos if clients require that which is quite often. Third the trusty and now three year old FS7 does most of its work on doco and heavy interview based programming. A number of prime and short DSLR zooms lenses plus Sony's 18-110 cover the 4K requirements. For HD work that requires B4 servo lenses an MTF B4 S16 adapter rounds out that FS7 package quite nicely. Being able to use the long servo B4s has been a lifesaver on a number of jobs with the FS7. Lastly the 'B' camera and backup was an x70 but has now been replaced with a Z90. The Z90 is a great small B cam and is great to use on quick streaming jobs and produces an output way better than one would expect for its price. In quite a few places it is the ideal little, hate the phrase, 'run-n-gun' tool. With a wide angle on it it has delivered a lot of entertainment back stage color footage with a lot of camera movement far easier and quicker that anything larger that has far more difficult movement options. It's a mess of cameras but they all have their strong and weak points. I just use whatever works best for the job in hand. In the end I guess we all work out what works best for us.

Chris Young

 

[legrevedotcom]

And compared to any other professional wildlife photographer? Are their rigs any smaller?

I just dont see the point of this thread... at this point, it's not about the camera but the project. Ask yourselves... would your setup by any smaller with ANY other camera?

 

[cyvideo]

Absolutely. If you can't carry around a 2/3" ENG camera on your shoulder for a day perhaps it is time to consider another line of work.

Still today if you are working in live sport, motorsport you will find the 2/3" ENG type camera with a 4.3-4.5mm wide angle is still the de facto tool. The camera is usually live linked and is capable of delivering a live video feed and is simultaneously capable of accepting return video, genlock, camera control and live two way comms. Comms with normally the director in one ear and the program feed in the other. The 2/3" ENG type camera is still king in this type of environment. If you are used to working in this sort of TV production work you are generally used to and expected to be able to work most of the day with an ENG camera on your shoulder. A well balanced ENG rig is in my experience is by far the easiest, most ergonomic and least tiring kit to work with. As can be seen from the following clip in a busy motorsport situation it's virtually all 2/3" cameras with links with the cameramen working hand held and walking forwards, sideways backwards and always on the move. It takes practice but is what is expected from a good jobbing cameraman in this industry. This is the working cameraman's world for a lot of TV production where the 2/3" ENG type workflows still rule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hb18EzQ_vA

Chris Young

 

[morgan_moore]

There is no perfect answer is there.

What frustrates me is that in the last decade electronics have shrunk, disc and tape media are not used.

It seems entirely possible for 2/3 or MFT camreas to be shrink to EVA1 size and still be provided with a grown up zoom lens that can be used by adults.

--

Doug - I think the 2/3 all day comment is a little off - yes people use them but they still restrict mobility and agility however fit you are.

 

[Donny 123]

Maybe I should amend my comment.. ⅔ is only still used in the US.. I think some networks are still shooting betacam there.. the rest of the world for any freelance doc or corp DP they will get zero work from an ENG camera../zoom set up.. everything is s35.. and at least 50% or more is now 4K.. 3 out of the last 4 shoots I had were 4K.. one was 4096.. but mostly 3840..

 

[Liam Hall]

Maybe I should amend my comment.. ⅔ is only still used in the US.. I think some networks are still shooting betacam there.. the rest of the world for any freelance doc or corp DP they will get zero work from an ENG camera../zoom set up.. everything is s35.. and at least 50% or more is now 4K.. 3 out of the last 4 shoots I had were 4K.. one was 4096.. but mostly 3840..

Yep, as an owner/op, I haven't been asked to shoot on a 2/3rd chip camera since 2009. I see them occasionally at concerts/live events but those are multi-camera, outside broadcast jobs, not owner/ops.

Camera aside, what has changed over the years is the amount of accessories you're supposed to supply for a basic doc style shoot. Gone are the days you can show up with a camera, tripod and a couple of lights. I'm lucky in that most of my clients pay for an assistant or two to make it work, but some don't - they must think I have a cheap chiropractor.

 

[Donny 123]

Yep, as an owner/op, I haven't been asked to shoot on a 2/3rd chip camera since 2009. I see them occasionally at concerts/live events but those are multi-camera, outside broadcast jobs, not owner/ops.

Camera aside, what has changed over the years is the amount of accessories you're supposed to supply for a basic doc style shoot. Gone are the days you can show up with a camera, tripod and a couple of lights. I'm lucky in that most of my clients pay for an assistant or two to make it work, but some don't - they must think I have a cheap chiropractor.

haha yes its true.. I remember when a wide angle zoom was extra.. even radio mics were extra .. cost !!..and the day rate has actually gone down hugely from the 80,s/90,s .. when you think what a house costs now !!.. Unfortunately I was an assistant to the last generation of gentlemen film makers !..when the DP,s had large country houses ..and a couple of Volvo's in the drive...and we would shoot about 40 mins a day.. stay in posh hotels.. and always have a very nice lunch .. its a slippery slope thats just getting stepper Im afraid..