Yeah. Surely ~5 years later, technology has advanced enoough that they could make a replacement HMC150 with a little better sensors even using CCDs. Backlit maybe. Even if it still didn't have true full raster chips, but could do 1080 60P and had an LCD with red focus peaking I'd buy another. Or maybe replace the ones I have with the new ones. Alas, I don't see it happening. Surely not with CCDs anyway. They COULD have used the 150 body size with the MOS chips but they wanted that 22X zoom which was part of the reason for making the 130/160 so much larger.
Is There a Proper Successor to the HMC 150?
- Thread starter sagedrummer
- Start date
Yeah. Surely ~5 years later, technology has advanced enoough that they could make a replacement HMC150 with a little better sensors even using CCDs. Backlit maybe. Even if it still didn't have true full raster chips, but could do 1080 60P and had an LCD with red focus peaking I'd buy another. Or maybe replace the ones I have with the new ones. Alas, I don't see it happening. Surely not with CCDs anyway. They COULD have used the 150 body size with the MOS chips but they wanted that 22X zoom which was part of the reason for making the 130/160 so much larger.
I love my HMC150 but it just can't compete with current video technology. It's apparent to me every time I use it on a multi-cam shoot with my GH2s and GH3. Compared to the DSLRs my poor old HMC150 is soft, dark, noisy, and had blocky digital artifacts. So I've been looking to replace it just like the OP. I ended up ordering an AC130A. I haven't gotten it yet but when I do I'll try to put together a comparison video.
I found this website helpful when comparing camcorders. It's in German but if you're familiar with camera jargon then you can understand it. I think that the frame grabs and test charts at the bottom of the comparisons are most helpful.
http://www.camcorder-test.com/
Just select two cameras from the list (by holding down Command while clicking) and then press the "Anzeigen" button.
FYI, being in Europe they only tested the HMC151 (the PAL version) and they only tested the AC160 (which should be visually identical to the AC130) so select those two if you want to see how they compare. That's what I did, and that's why I ordered an AC130A to replace my HMC150!
I found this website helpful when comparing camcorders. It's in German but if you're familiar with camera jargon then you can understand it. I think that the frame grabs and test charts at the bottom of the comparisons are most helpful.
http://www.camcorder-test.com/
Just select two cameras from the list (by holding down Command while clicking) and then press the "Anzeigen" button.
FYI, being in Europe they only tested the HMC151 (the PAL version) and they only tested the AC160 (which should be visually identical to the AC130) so select those two if you want to see how they compare. That's what I did, and that's why I ordered an AC130A to replace my HMC150!
Since i shoot alot of live concerts, one thing i have found out is that all these cameras can do wonders on different occasions, Sometimes i wonder if it is true that the AC130 is better than the HMC150, what i know is that it varies from one shooting to the other. Since i shoot with the AC130, HMC150 and the GH1 & 2. What i can say is that on interviews and such kind of shooting, the AC130 excels, but on unpredicted random shooting, the difference is very marginal.
Vaughan Wood
Well-known member
Hi Everyone.
Interesting discussion. I have a HMC 150 that I used for many weddings as a light weight camera, and mainly used two Sony EX 1 ' s for concert work for 5 years, until they started getting noisey with old age.
I replaced the Ex 1's with a Panasonic AG130 and 160, and our concert and wedding clients have never had such lovely CLEAN video of their events. The old HMC 150 has been relegated to "spare camera" for years now!
I'm always astounded that the 130/160 forum is the least visited compared to the older HMC forum. Too many people obviously used the cameras on auto focus and got into trouble with it. We tend to leave our cameras on manual focus, so have not had any problems with these lovely cameras which we mix with an AF100 when we do a 3 camera shoot. (Presentation Balls and School Productions).
To the OP, I would thoroughly recommend the sharp, clean picture of the 130/160 series for all event work. Very reliable, tough cameras!
Cheers,
Vaughan Wood
Interesting discussion. I have a HMC 150 that I used for many weddings as a light weight camera, and mainly used two Sony EX 1 ' s for concert work for 5 years, until they started getting noisey with old age.
I replaced the Ex 1's with a Panasonic AG130 and 160, and our concert and wedding clients have never had such lovely CLEAN video of their events. The old HMC 150 has been relegated to "spare camera" for years now!
I'm always astounded that the 130/160 forum is the least visited compared to the older HMC forum. Too many people obviously used the cameras on auto focus and got into trouble with it. We tend to leave our cameras on manual focus, so have not had any problems with these lovely cameras which we mix with an AF100 when we do a 3 camera shoot. (Presentation Balls and School Productions).
To the OP, I would thoroughly recommend the sharp, clean picture of the 130/160 series for all event work. Very reliable, tough cameras!
Cheers,
Vaughan Wood
D.R. Gates
Well-known member
And my guess is that the global shutter technology must be quite expensive, as I've seen them on only a handful of high-end cameras. I'm in event work, mostly weddings, and the rolling shutter and flash banding with CMOS sensors simply looks awful (doesn't help that the wedding photographer's flash is going off a thousand times in my presence). That's why I love my old 150 and it's lovely CCD chips, even though it's not the cleanest, sharpest video out there. If I didn't do weddings, I'd for sure get another camera.
R Hudson
Well-known member
I have not done so myself but according to what I have read there is little difference between 8-bit 4:2:2 ProRes and the AVCHD files in reference to quality. Apparently IF it was 10-bit output the quality would be better but at 8-bit it was pretty much a wash.
R Hudson
Well-known member
My best guess is that they will look as if they are from different worlds entirely. The quality and look will be entirely different and the form factor of the AX100 compared to the HMC150 will probably drive you crazy.
Yeah. I almost cringe to think about what wedding footage would look like using a rolling shutter camera as the main cameras with the massive bombarding flash array firing off! And how would you do slow motion scenes for highlights? In slomo the flash banding would be even more noticeable.
D.R. Gates
Well-known member
Yep, it's pretty bad. Like TMZ footage of a red carpet premiere.
D.R. Gates
Well-known member
I wouldn't say it doesn't bother them, it's just that they have no choice in the matter. With most of the cameras for sale, it's rolling-shutter CMOS or nothing at all.
The Irish TRex
Well-known member
Except that the new Panasonic PX270 has built in flash band compensation. I'd say that is the best successor yet. Sure it's not CCD so it's not always perfect, but with FBC you can do slow-mo at 1080p60 now at 10bit 4:2:2 until your hearts content...which I do. 
D.R. Gates
Well-known member
Didn't know that camera was out yet. And it's technically a successor to the 170. Either way, it looks a decent cam for sure.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It is a successor to the 170, and the 250, but in some ways it could also be considered a successor to the HMC150 because you can shoot 25mbps long-GoP with it, to a regular SD card. The primary difference between the HMC150 and HPX170 was, of course, the recording format and media. The PX270 can use the same recording formats and media as the HPX170/HPX250, but it can also use the same SD card media as the HMC150. The recording format is different, it doesn't have AVCHD, but it does have AVC-LongG25 which is about the same data rate, although it is a notably higher-quality recording format since it features 10-bit and 4:2:2.
It still isn't a CCD; there likely really won't be a 1/3" CCD camera again. The flash-band compensation helps overcome one of the limitations of a CMOS camera, but there's still a rolling shutter in there, FBC only works in 1080/60 (i or p) and 720/60p, so it won't work at 24p, and there is still some skew on super-fast pans. So it's not an absolute direct successor, but it's otherwise better in every conceivable way. It's also a lot more expensive than an HMC150, so again, not a direct replacement.
It still isn't a CCD; there likely really won't be a 1/3" CCD camera again. The flash-band compensation helps overcome one of the limitations of a CMOS camera, but there's still a rolling shutter in there, FBC only works in 1080/60 (i or p) and 720/60p, so it won't work at 24p, and there is still some skew on super-fast pans. So it's not an absolute direct successor, but it's otherwise better in every conceivable way. It's also a lot more expensive than an HMC150, so again, not a direct replacement.
Could you imagine if the HMC-150 had higher resolution and longer zoom? With the CCDs it would still be the top camera al these years later.
The end viewer is pretty used to flash banding and even whip pan skew. I saw a whip pan on HGTV that about made me fall out of my seat it was so skewed but no one else in the room noticed anything until I pointed it out. I get the overcrank thing with flashbanding though and it will be nice when the compensation feature trickles down from the 270. I sold my HMC150 and bought a pair of AC90s a few months ago after much hemming and hawing. After a bit practical use, every single thing that I thought I would miss from the HMC150, I didn't miss a bit. Well, sometimes I do miss program shift on the AE a little but when I look at the image quality of the footage, that goes right out of my head. The AE on the AC90 is so fast and accurate, I don't really mind the integrated gain and ND. At first when I experienced the "fun" of integrated gain in a dark theater combined with a non-constant aperture zoom, I had a sinking feeling that I made a mistake but once again, the AE is so good that I just use the Spotlight and Backlight modes on user buttons as a program shift and run in auto. . You really appreciate the built in smooth ND when you walk into the reception hall from the limo drop off. Focus in red anyone? Boy was I happy to finally have that feature on an affordable Panasonic Cam For me, the AC90 was one heck of a surprise and turned out to be the HMC150 replacement I thought it wouldn't be. Oh, auto white balance still sucks!
The camera from audience left has the best image and exposure. The audience right cam is overexposed. Which is which?