F55: is the red 18-85 a bad choice for documentary shooting with the f55

R

ryaninoz

Well-known member
I am considering the red 18-85 zoom. Good coverage and reasonably fast. Second hand they can be bought for around 6000 which is really good considering the fujinon cabrio is $ 38000 and it's only marginally longer. Does anyone have any experience with this lens. It does look heavy and I am wondering how practical it would be for off the shoulder shooting and doco shooting.

Coming from 2/3 inch I am used to having huge coverage from a lens however buying a new 2/3 inch camera and a 35 mm camera is not practical budget wise so I am heading for an f55 to be my every scenario camera from crew shoots to one man band but I'm having a hard time trying to figure the best way forward in terms of lenses - especially for doco run and gun shoots where primes aren't practical.

So far I am pretty frustrated, the dslr lenses look to be a cheap way around but there seems to be too many gotchas such as no aperture ring - or having to use adapters to get aperture control. The old Nikons seem like a reasonable alternative but they focus the opposite way - plus many of them aren't par focal lenses - it seems like many of the dslr lenses aren't par focal which to me rules them out for cinematography.

This has led me to the red 18-85 zoom but it's massive. I'd appreciate any feedback - what are other peoples choices regarding an all round zoom to work with a 35 camera in a eng/efp setting ?
 
Hello.

I'm in the same boat. I'm looking at picking up an F55 in the next few weeks and wanted an ENG style lens other than the Cabrio. Sony has the SCL-Z18X140. It's a 14X lens that will take you from 18 to 252mm. It's also a powered zoom. If you add the CBKDCB01 power zoom control, you can use the servo capabilities of the lens. I've used a Fujinon zoom demand for years and just can't part with it. This is the perfect setup for run and gun scenarios. The lens is just shy of $10k. The zoom control is $1,400. Not exactly cheap, but a more affordable alternative to the Cabrio, and a lot more functional than DSLR lenses.
 
Red 18-85 on the shoulder. Ouch. And definitely not practical to hold chest or waist level. It is a big heavy lens which requires support. You might consider the Sony zoom. Not everything is implemented yet with the F55 and I know there are many here who turn their noses up at that lens, however, it is lightweight and the image is decent. Slow. But it could work.

The Optimo DP lenses are lightweight, but we're looking $20K plus for these.

Depending upon your project needs, I would honestly consider renting a more compact cine zoom with choices such as the Optimo DP, Zeiss, Canon and of course the Cabrio.

Just my .02

Ned Soltz
 
Thanks for the replies, I might test drive a sony zoom. f6.8 at the long end seems pretty slow, then I wonder what it is at 85mm?
Could be a good option though. 18-252 is pretty good coverage and close to what I am used to.
 
Red 18-85 is a complete beast. Only viable for doc shooting if you're Andre The Giant, a professional weightlifter, or can manipulate gravity within small geographic areas.
 
I would suggest looking at the RED 17-50mm lens, small, compact and versatile, which shoots a lovely picture too. Wide enough for wides and really useful for handheld, as you wouldn't want to shoot anything more than 50mm for handheld work anyway. Use it on my F3 and F35 all the time with lovely results.
I was also looking at the Carl Zeiss 70-200/T2.9 PL , which looks like a great lens and an affordable price too.
 
ryaninoz said:
Thanks for the replies, I might test drive a sony zoom. f6.8 at the long end seems pretty slow, then I wonder what it is at 85mm?
Could be a good option though. 18-252 is pretty good coverage and close to what I am used to.
Click to expand...

I think the lens only gets really slow at full zoom, and up to 100mm or so it's fine. As the cameras are so good in low light anyway, the speed isn't such as issue esp if you are shooting sporting events outside etc.
 
Give the IBE HDX35 Pl/B4 Mark II adaptor a try - you'll be able to use any 2/3 B4 lens. Price is a bit steep, but the optics are meant to be top notch.

You lose about 2.5 stops, but these cameras being so sensitive, I don't think it's a massive issue (at least for shooting ext/day). Coupled with a modern Canon or Fujinon 2/3" lens, you'd be shooting at around f4 1/2-5.6 (depending on focal length). I'm sure it wont be as sharp and 'pretty' as a native s35mm lens, but at least you gain the coverage and ergonomics you are used to get with ENG style cameras. On doco shoots you can always bring with you a few primes for whenever you want a more 'stylised' look.

By the way, I haven't tested it yet, though I'm hoping to do so soon. I believe Sony are also working on a similar solution (FZ/B4), but nothing's out yet.
 
I was thinking of this lens (red) and realised its about the same size/mass as a 400 2.8 - which I own

I shouldered that for a few minutes and then moved on!

S
 
Ive been round and round the houses and ended up with a nikor 28-85 and an 18 - manual, great focus and aperture rings

If you dislike the 'nikon way' Id probably check out the contax and canon FD manual zoom lenses

S
 
I think lens manufacturers are missing a trick here. Seeing the amount of lighting cameramen who are trading their ENG cameras for S35mm sensor cams, I wonder why Canon, Fujinon, Angenieux and the likes aren't targeting that market. I realise the laws of physics can't be bent and so I don't expect a S35 lens with the same reach and size as a 2/3" lens, but I'm sure they could work on something that offered a performance in between the Cabrio and the Sony SCLZ18X140.

I find they put too much effort in developing sub T3 zooms, when in reality many of us would happily trade a bit of lens speed for more compactness and reach. I would settle for a T4 (or T4 1/2...or even T5.6!) constant aperture, a variable focal length of 15/20mm - 150/200mm and a similar size to the Cabrio (preferably a bit smaller). I'm not a fan of doublers, but they could always add that for whenever you need the extra reach.

I know such lens wouldn't be popular around film sets, but many owner operators who work on TV and corporate would buy them in a heart beat.
 
A trick is certainly being missed. But the other way round is that the sensors are just too big.

IMO a MFT sensor (in the right camera) and the right zoom might reach the perfect doco camera.

If you look at the cabrio I think by going from 18 to 19mm they made a clever trade off which paid in mass and size compared to the red lens for example

The Arri LWZ is discontinued (?) so maybe they have something up their sleeve.

Another trade off I would take is a variable prime and forget parfocal - personally I don't zoom while Im rolling, I just like a zoom to save lens changes.

Of course there is another problem which is the producers choosing the right camera for the job. I think my new slogan is 'tell me why I shouldnt use my EX1' - certainly if I had a decent lensed 2/3 camera I would say that a lot

Also for 2k delivery the current (4k) cameras could offer a crop mode (quickly accessed) where the centre 2k was used and seen in the monitor.

i tried that with Red but IMO it was a bit soft I guess due to the nature of the OPLF

S
 
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ryaninoz said:
I am considering the red 18-85 zoom. Good coverage and reasonably fast. Second hand they can be bought for around 6000 which is really good considering the fujinon cabrio is $ 38000 and it's only marginally longer. Does anyone have any experience with this lens. It does look heavy and I am wondering how practical it would be for off the shoulder shooting and doco shooting.
This has led me to the red 18-85 zoom but it's massive. I'd appreciate any feedback
Click to expand...
I bought my 18-85mm RED for a feature I filmed in a house. I had to shoot in tight spaces in only 10 days and with very little money so it was the best choice for me. The lens is about 10 lbs so it isn't exactly light weight, but if you have used an old Beta SP camera, it is not a big deal. You just need a rig to balance it and a EVF.

 
I have the older Red 18-50 and have used it shoulder mounted. I also had reviewed the Sony zoom and found it doesn't really start slowing down until 100-120mm or so. I still think it is a decent doc lens all things considered. The Red 50-150 rents for like $255 per week from Adorama. Now that Sigma is once again selling a 50-150 (this new lens being with IS), I would really hope Matt Duclos or someone would do a Cine-PL mod ala the Tokina 11-16. Such a versatile focal length. If I were actually new glass myself, it would be between the Zeiss and Canon.

Ned
 
This really has everything to do with how you like to work and how big a crew you expect to have on a documentary.
For my style I have small crews , need to move fast and want to be able to change lenses quickly. That makes the 18-85 completely out of the question it is an absolute beast.
I'm completely happy with my Nikons for doc work. They are sharp, as parfocal as I need, my Opteka adapter shows f stops, and I can carry everything from 1n 11 to 200mm in a bag around my shoulder. The only significant down side is the shorter focus throw, but honestly on a doc I've very rarely had it be an issue. Its easy to get used to the focus direction if you stick with Nikon and if you use a follow focus you can swtich it.
If I had the money I'd love the optimos, zeiss new Canons etc, and the 17-50 looks attractive, but I haven't found the need yet.
The big thing I miss is image stabilization for handheld and that's pulling me towards switching to an FS100 with speed booster.
 
dracalat said:
Give the IBE HDX35 Pl/B4 Mark II adaptor a try - you'll be able to use any 2/3 B4 lens. Price is a bit steep, but the optics are meant to be top notch.

You lose about 2.5 stops, but these cameras being so sensitive, I don't think it's a massive issue (at least for shooting ext/day). Coupled with a modern Canon or Fujinon 2/3" lens, you'd be shooting at around f4 1/2-5.6 (depending on focal length). I'm sure it wont be as sharp and 'pretty' as a native s35mm lens, but at least you gain the coverage and ergonomics you are used to get with ENG style cameras. On doco shoots you can always bring with you a few primes for whenever you want a more 'stylised' look.

By the way, I haven't tested it yet, though I'm hoping to do so soon. I believe Sony are also working on a similar solution (FZ/B4), but nothing's out yet.
Click to expand...

Or MTF have an adapter Alister Chapman designed. It seems lighter and costs much less.
 
morgan_moore said:
Ive been round and round the houses and ended up with a nikor 28-85 and an 18 - manual, great focus and aperture rings

If you dislike the 'nikon way' Id probably check out the contax and canon FD manual zoom lenses

S
Click to expand...

what is the second lens you were referring to? "and an 18 - manual" 18-? would love to know of a 18-something manual aperture nikon zoom to look couple with the 28-85.
 
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