FS7: Is the FS7 as good as the F55? Why own the F55? Opinions...

[morgan_moore]

FS7 has the potential to be both a great "elite solo op" cam or switch into a decent "crew camera" , but it does have some kinks to iron out. Meanwhile we'll all figure out how to get around them in our own ways.

Lenny

The reason it is not a Elite Camera are not easily soluble with a few bolt ons from Redcuto.

-The handle need to be wood or at least tactile in the manner of a 1dx or nikon D4
(it cannot be swapped out at the moment due to the excellent funtionality that may not be replicable by a third party)

-the core egonomics are not good enough - for example the audio pots feel crap compared to those on my Sound Devices recorder

The EVF (again offering great functionality hard to replicate) also does not have Elite Camera build.

-The cables need to be swappable lemo connections so one can carry spares

Etc.

Features I would not expect at this price point of course

Of course we can hope for software upgrades - your tint thing and my desire for off centre focus check

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

After handling both at a Sony Expo I can confidently say the F55 is much better. It just feels better on the shoulder with the adapter and looks very neat, very modular small design and the settings are accessed faster through the side panel. I've never held a pro aony but sonehow I was able to nail the ergonomics of the F55 in a few minutes. It's just a solid brick of neat design anf the EVF is simply perfect. The FS7 is also fine but just not as good, much more fiddly and implies a feeling of plastickyness (just compared to the F55, it's just as good as the conpetetion, i.e, C300) it's definitely more fiddly to change settings and there quite a few bugs in the iris, waveform, LUTs, the EVF and LCD are markedly inferior, and doesn't sit as well on my shoulder (ironically). All of this criticism should not be held against the FS7 as it's still great and even a bit better than a C300, but when you've just handeled the F55 it feels like a downgrade in almost every way.

Plus remember that the FS7 is not a practically viable solution for recording raw (needs the FS7 interface on the back plus the R5 brick mounted on another part of the rig with a cable dangling in between. While recording raw on the R5 is everybit as good as internal recording, it becomes a part of the camera very neatly and you simply slot your cards in the camera and record. Don't forget many sports videographers need the 240p as a selling point in their market, 180 is fine but many will still want 240p to attract more clients and slower slow-motion, it also allows the 2K aliasing filter eliminating aliasing at 2K in this mode. Also don't forget the Global shutter, which is alone a deal breaker for most DPs shooting high end features, that alone is worth the price difference, these DPs also strive for the highest image quality possible so the wider colour gamut will be an important factor. Also the FZ mount is much more suited for PL lenses used in higher end cinema. Also a deal breaker is the native s16 crop and compatability with s16 cinema lenses. Not to mention the constant firmware upgrades Sony invested in the F55 like ProRes internal and DNxHD, and many more plannrd. The F55 will rent for more if you are using it for that kind of business, and of course it will help sell you as a production conpany to clients much more than FS7, it's how the world works.

There are many reasons to get an F55 if you need the extra features. And it certainly doesn't make sense to buy an F55 if you don't need them, the FS7 is more suited for you, but that doesn't mean it's a better or equal to the F55. Compare features and hold the cameras and see what features you need and which camera you like using and base your decision based on that.

 

[petermullett]

Way off subject maybe, ( "Sony" subject that is )……But has anyone seen or handled the AJA Cion?
There's a lot about the camera I find very attractive, but I've never seen one in the wild.

 

[eddavid]

Listen f55 owners - of course the f55 is superior - it also costs 4x as much. But it's not 4x superior. And producers control our industry. And they care about prices. Producers need to come under budget. So you can go ahead and either keep shooting with your f55, or buy a fs7 and call it a day. The choice is yours. But all I'm saying is the producer will rent an Alexa for cheaper and have less hassle than a f55. So the fs7 is actually a good thing, because if colorists and DIT and editors become familar with this F line from Sony, maybe they will want to rent your f55.

And I'm seeing F55s on productions more and more.

 

[jshbckr]

Way off subject maybe, ( "Sony" subject that is )……But has anyone seen or handled the AJA Cion?
There's a lot about the camera I find very attractive, but I've never seen one in the wild.

I had a hands-on with it a few months ago. The ergnomics/design is nice. Feels great on the shoulder (albeit, we didn't have handles on it, I just grabbed the matte box). Feels nice and rugged. However, everything must be adjusted through menus using a little wheel button. Really kind of killed a lot of it for me. but in AJA's defense, they are designing a film production camera. Where you're on controlled shoots and generally have time to make camera adjustments (scene changes) or you have no need to change camera settings.

Personally, I need a camera that is a little more doc-style for my shooting speed. I might need to quickly run outside for a shot but need to throw on ND and switch white balance. I might need to throw it into a higher frame rate for a slomo shot and then back to standard. The faster I'm able to do this stuff, the better.

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

They say the Cion has 16 assignable buttons for direct access to any function. That would be cool if true.

 

[Run&Gun]

1)...( I have NEVER had anyone request a camera with a global shutter. )...


2)...I just informed a client that I have acquired a Sony F7, the new version of the Sony F5...

1) Probably because most producers, bookers, etc. do not know what a global shutter is/does, exists or makes a difference(depending on what your shooting). I work with some producers that are 'in the loop' and knowledgeable, but I still work with a lot that still barely understand HD.

2) You told your client a little fib there.

I'm deciding right now if I'm going to get an F55 by the end of the year. The reasons I want to go with the 55 over the 5 are Global Shutter and better/wider color filter array.

BTW, I had a talk with my rep today about the Sony ENG kit and it addresses a lot of the problems of the 5/55(ability to quickly WB, adjust audio easily, shoulder mount, handle, etc.). Yes, it costs as much as the entire FS7, but these are different cameras targeted at different markets.

 

[Run&Gun]

Listen f55 owners - of course the f55 is superior - 1)it also costs 4x as much. But it's not 4x superior. And producers control our industry. And they care about prices. Producers need to come under budget. So you can go ahead and either keep shooting with your f55, or buy a fs7 and call it a day. The choice is yours. But all I'm saying is the producer will rent an Alexa for cheaper and have less hassle than a f55. So the fs7 is actually a good thing, because if colorists and DIT and editors become familar with this F line from Sony, maybe they will want to rent your f55.

And I'm seeing F55s on productions more and more.

1) Unfortunately it's that way with almost everything in our industry.

And I'll say what I say all the time in these camera vs. camera discussions, it depends on YOUR market and clients. Buy what is best for you. Buy what's going to allow you to make money and service your clients best, whether it's a $1500 camera or a $90,000 camera. Where I am and my client base, it's C300 and F5/F55 for feature work(not movies, network features). The C300 has been the darling for a few years, but the F5/55 has QUICKLY been gaining traction and is becoming a go-to cam that producers are requesting. A big reason is because of the slow-mo capabilities and one of the producers told me he is planning on experimenting with 4K beginning in '15. I've been able to service all of the large sensor shoots with my C300, so far, but the F's are much easier to shoot with and the HS/slo-mo and 4K capabilities will probably open me up to more opportunities and make the investment worth it. Whether we like it or not, we have probably all gotten calls just on the basis of the cameras/gear we own. I know I have. Some to shoot and some just for rentals.

 

[morgan_moore]

"I have NEVER had anyone request a camera with a global shutter."

I dont see it that way - film a light show and the client may wonder why there are stripes all over the footage and cause you big hassle with payment reshoot whatever!

No one ever requested a moiree free camera either.

I would not go over 10k and not have global shutter - one thing that pushed me away from the F5.

S

 

[Ben Scott]

Lots of choices. Lots of price points. Lots of reasons why it is a good time to be making pretty pictures.

There comes a point when you need to just get out there and shoot and not worry about the things your camera doesn't do and focus on the thing it can. It is capable of producing excellent material in a variety of circumstances and is so inexpensive for what it offers that if you can't make your money back on it you maybe shouldn't have been looking to purchase it in the first place. I see it as a camera I intend to shoot the **** out of and run into the ground (until the FS8/F5 mk2?) and do all the jobs with that I used to have to turn down as a Red owner because of the limitations of THAT system.

 

[SJX]

...and not just that comment either! And it's not just the BS it's the aggressive know it all attitude - no need for it.

Steve

What know it all attitude? Only because I speak my opinion?

Steve is not my fault if you post bashing a camera with sarcasm and don't check your info and don't like people correcting you and throwing your sarcasm back. If you don't like this don't post this then. Is time to get over that.

 

[SJX]

For you, perhaps. That's the problem, some people on here make pronouncements and see them as facts, others have and respect opinions, experiences, differences and discussion - that's why I'm here.
Steve

So to respect others opinions you can't have your own opinion or what you saying?

Making pronouncements and see as facts? Because they are facts maybe? Global shutter trumps rolling shutter, F55 color trumps FS7 color, 16 bits trumps 12 bits. F55 construction trumps FS7 construction. This is fact. F55 is better than FS7 and is fact. It's not important if people say global shutter etc is not important to them. It is still fact.

 

[SJX]

Indeed when I shot a feature and had 'people' I really didnt care about the mass of my camera.

But I think there is questioning of a 'normal' cameraman and what they can do or be expected to do.

For example car shooting, once upon a time it was 'normal' to maybe remove a door to make space for the camera - today that is mostly not needed.

Also overheads, low shots and the like - really hard with an F35!

S

Sorry don't get hang on normal cameraman. With this I mean normal person, normal size person. For normal person F55 is not really heavy. Of course is not right camera for helmet camera. Is not made for this. Right tool for right job. For overheads etc with F35 you use crane or boom. This is how you do. Is not F35 fault if you can't afford this and need to tape camera to broom stick to use like crane. This don't make F35 or F55 bad and don't make them too heavy or big. It make them too heavy if you need gopro. But then use gopro.

 

[SJX]

Um... no cop out. Just thought it was getting pointless.

The bottom line is the FS7 feels no more plasticky than the EX3. The handle and VF don't feel bullet proof, but the body is tough. That said, I don't like the rubber covers for the connections. However, for me, it's not about the feel, it's about the image. And the image it offers is great bang for the buck. No question about it.

Osslund talked about PMW. But bottom line is FS7 feel more plasticky than F55. Thread is about F55. I think compare FS7 with F55 is wishful thinking. Different tools. One made for high end other made for corporate etc.
I don't say you can't use FS7 for high end but in high end people have money so why use FS7 as main camera? FS7 is not bad camera it is camera for right market. Not same market with F55.
I think this thread is just people justifying why they bought which camera. I didn't buy F55 or FS7 so I have no dog in this race. But I have handled them.

 

[SJX]

I just informed a client that I have acquired a Sony F7, the new version of the Sony F5 that now does dual slot recording and offers greater lens options. There are no doubt DP's who will demand an F5 over an Fs7 and I myself will no doubt at times wish I had an F5 instead of an Fs7. But I don't foresee many clients demanding an F5 over an Fs7. Why would they when the F5 is two less than an F7?

So you lie to your clients?

They must be very dumb to look FS7 and F5 and think FS7 is better. F5 look more professional even for dumb client know nothing of cameras.

 

[SJX]

But why would anyone shoot a movie on the f55 if you can shoot it on the Alexa for cheaper? When the Alexa has superior skin tones, perceived resolution, motion, and color handling?

This may be reason why F55 don't have many theatrical movies too. Not price only but because better skin, color etc like you say. This is my big problem with FS7 and also F5 and F55. Video look with not great skins. But this different topic.

 

[eddavid]

about that wider color gamut - not one colorist I've worked with wanted to see f55 shoot with the s gamut instead of s gamut.cine which is not wide color gamut. They all prefer s gamut.cine.

f55 is the one to get - global shutter is useful. but I'll say it again - the alexa is now cheaper to rent than the f55 - that's a big deal. and the alexa will give you better results. So another reason the fs7 is in the world. Sony is about 3 years ahead of all of us on this board, all of our collective brain waves combined.

They have a very smart camera department. Now, talking about their TV's - that's a different story I remember the golden days when the Trinitron was a brand that screamed quality.

 

[morgan_moore]

Sorry don't get hang on normal cameraman. With this I mean normal person, normal size person. For normal person F55 is not really heavy. Of course is not right camera for helmet camera. Is not made for this. Right tool for right job. For overheads etc with F35 you use crane or boom. This is how you do. Is not F35 fault if you can't afford this and need to tape camera to broom stick to use like crane. This don't make F35 or F55 bad and don't make them too heavy or big. It make them too heavy if you need gopro. But then use gopro.

Of course there are many interpretations of 'normal camera man'

To me this is my chums from the BBC who shoot 2/3 ENG cam on chunky sticks in the main - they are a 'normal camera man'

Now those guys shoot to a kind of style - often knocking off details with their big ENG lens - not a bad style.

But there is a more personal way of shooting - shorter lenses, in tight, over head, low mode held over shots whatever far more fast moving and physical.

Anyway we both know perfectly what these cameras do. F35 is not too big for a film crew on a movie, and goPro is the right thing to bolt to your head.

As ever it is the grey middle ground that is hard to argue.

Personally I like saving some mass - the FS7 gives a great image for the size and that to me is a good thing.

If it was 50% lighter (like the FS100) I would personally like it even more!

S

 

[Gene Sung]

SJX, it's obvious you have a dislike towards Sony F and FS cameras. If you don't like the camera, you stated your position (over and over) so please move on.

You are an anonymous poster who has no links to your work. How do we know if you have any idea on what you are talking about? How do we know you are not just trolling everyone? Even if your work was brilliant and you were Roger Deakins himself, nobody would care because of your overly aggressive and discourteous attitude towards everyone on here.

You don't need a new camera, you need anger management classes and better medication.

 

[Ben Scott]

Don't player hate just because you aren't built like a tank and do tricep curls with F65s for fun, like all us normal cameramen.