FS7: Is the FS7 as good as the F55? Why own the F55? Opinions...

If anyone said that small is always better, I missed it. Small is SOMETIMES better. Exactly the reason the GoPro has sole millions. You aren't going to mount an F5 on a helmet. There are times when the Fs7's small size and light weight are going to be an advantage. Situations where the diminutive size and light weight mean you GET the shot. If you are a camera op on a show like "COPS", do you want to be hopping fences with the Fs7, NP batts, and a Sony alpha lens... or hopping fences with the F5, full size batts, and an EF lens?? It has nothing to do with the operator being a weakling or old. A physically fit operator who is young in age will be faster with the described Sony Fs7 setup than with the described F5 setup.

Want to hold an F5 with the OLED VF high above your head to get a shot over a crowd? Oh, wait. Not possible. And not because of the additional weight compared to the Fs7. The loupe can't be removed so there isn't any way to see your shot unless you mount an external monitor. Now you are left explaining to the Producer or Director that you could have gotten the shot if you had one of those cheap wedding cameras that happen to make images every bit as satisfactory to the client, known as a "Fs7". Later you are explaining how your camera is down because that damn VF connector broke off after getting snagged when you were following the subject in tight quarters.

Okay, rant in response to dv troll now over.
 
Also the F55 has USB wifi adapter, so you can operate much of the camera via computer, ipad, iphone, blackberry, or really any smart phone device.

Is this worth $26k more? No, but it is cool. :cool:

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starcentral said:
Also the F55 has USB wifi adapter, so you can operate much of the camera via computer, ipad, iphone, blackberry, or really any smart phone device.

Is this worth $26k more? No, but it is cool. :cool:

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I've done this with my FS7. I'm sure it's similar to the F5/F55: Plug in the Wifi USB dongle that came in the box, create a username and password in the FS7 menu, connect to the IP Address the menu displays. Type in username/password, ta-da!
 
dang it they really did think of everything! lol

What does FS7 have for remote triggering? 4-pin hirose, or LANC jack, etc.. ?
 
jshbckr said:
And to your point, the less headache/hassle/etc there is, the better everyone can do their job. If the director is wondering why we can't roll yet and it's because some function isn't loaded yet or you have to fiddle through some menus to change a setting... that stresses the director out and is an unnecessary obstacle. In my mind, a nicer camera is all about removing barriers. The less you have to menu-dig and the less "gotchas" you have, the better off the whole production is.
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Don't get me wrong: I will absolutely give you and Sam that. I.e., that the more you pay for a tool the less time generally you have to spend messing around with it. Less time = more money, generally. I know as a producer I get upset if people are fiddling around because they went in cheap with the tools. There's a limit when, for example a shooter has to slide their knockoff slider 50 times when they could have just bought a cineslider and did it once or twice.

The FS7 compared to the F5 is a perfect example of this. Having to dig into the menus for example vs the neat side panel of the F5/F55, and all the other much discussed minor but still notable quirks. Some people will literally pay for that side screen alone - even if the images from both cameras are more or less identical (so say some trusted F55 DPs I know who have also used the FS7.)

I was this way with the Canon C300. The C300 has an identical image compared to the much cheaper C100 with a recorder. But the better monitor, EVF, and internal codec of the c300 made me go to it every time as my A cam because... there was less fiddling.

All of that said, as I produce and edit much more than I shoot these days, this was a good "compromise" camera that offered me (more or less) the technical core capabilities of the F5 (and somewhat the F55) at far less cost when a budget may not be big enough to pay for an F55 rental. If I was a full time shooter/owner-op, I think there would be no question I'd get an F5 with the 4K upgrade and a baseplate with shoulder mount, etc. if I could make it work financially. It's just a better all around camera for day-to-day shooting for people who can't mess around with a weird EVF rod or a slow iris dial.

So yeah, I totally get that.

Image wise though? All the cameras are basically the same these days. My point was if you have the time, you can make a high quality film with any of this stuff these days. I should have added... if you have the patience and the time :)
 
Hi I'm a producer. I ultimately decide the camera that will be used because I budget for the camera. If it's a high end job I budget for the alexa XT. if medium, I can now rent an alexa ev for cheaper than the f55. Why would I rent the F55 where it's harder to find and no one really has that much experience with it? Only if the DP owns it. But at this point the DP can buy an alexa EV on ebay for around the same price as the F55. And it's an alexa. Everyone knows it and loves it. And now lower to middle end - I need a lightweight camera - how about the fs7, f5, f55? Well is the image the same? Yes pretty much but the FS7 rents for $200-300 a day, the f5 for 500 a day, and the f55 for 800 a day. Hmmmm.....but they are the same image, pretty much to most producer's eyes? Well what about the c300? Not as good in dynamic range? Well I have a budget for a c300 which is around 400 a day. So why not go fs7 and put that extra 100 to your day rate? Hmmmm.... okay.

So why would anyone in the next year decide f55 over fs7? Especially with the new influx of red dragons, epics, scarlets, and of course, the Alexa Classic, the Alexa Amira, and the flood of C300s that are everywhere? And soon the Panasonic Varicam that will cost a little more than the f55, but its just more competition.

I think this is why Sony released the FS7. They were forced to play this chess piece. And it's basically their Queen and they won the chess game of the low to middle end market with it. They lost their knights (the f5 and the f55) but they still won the game.
 
eddavid said:
I think this is why Sony released the FS7. They were forced to play this chess piece. And it's basically their Queen and they won the chess game of the low to middle end market with it. They lost their knights (the f5 and the f55) but they still won the game.
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I almost feel like with the FS7, Sony is trying to introduce a "Gateway Drug" to Sony. If the FS7 becomes popular, which I think it will. I was at a noted LA rental house yesterday and the owner apparently has order a bunch of FS7s because he thinks it's going to be huge.

If people start using the FS7 a lot, more colorists and post people will learn it and more LUTs will be developed for it and just general support. So when I could benefit from RAW, which is becoming quite often lately since I've been shooting green screen, I will rent an F55 because the menus are pretty similar (or so I've heard) and I will basically know the F55. I do think the FS7 will make Sony's higher cameras more popular because right now, not many people are using the F55 compared to Red and Alexa. This might start to change though.

Sony was smart to position the FS7 as the gateway drug.
 
Gene I completely agree with you - I think that was their strategy. Plan B is to make the menu system more intuitive. Less menus. Just VIDEO, SENSOR, FRAME RATE, AUDIO, TIME CODE, SYSTEM. There's just too many submenus all over the place.
 
eddavid said:
Well I have a budget for a c300 which is around 400 a day. So why not go fs7 and put that extra 100 to your day rate? Hmmmm.... okay.

So why would anyone in the next year decide f55 over fs7?
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I'd say a lot depends on your total budget. For some shows, then camera rental may make up a high percentage of total cost - and in such case then what you say is totally true.

But the closer you get to a Hollywood blockbuster, then camera rental costs - as a percentage which includes a large crew, lighting, big name actors, hundreds of extras, catering, scenery, make-up etc......... - become far, far less significant. In which case, the extra percentage the F55 will add to your budget over an FS7 becomes insignificant. And the F55 is a better camera than the FS7 (global shutter for one thing) - if it's not going to add much of a percentage to the total budget, then it becomes very worthwhile. (Lens options for another reason as to maybe why.)
 
But why would anyone shoot a movie on the f55 if you can shoot it on the Alexa for cheaper? When the Alexa has superior skin tones, perceived resolution, motion, and color handling?
 
I think the difference between F5/55 & FS7 is much greater than simply the cost difference between the cameras. The F5/55 really sing when they are coupled with PL lenses and those are far more expensive than the kind of DSLR lenses that will be typical for FS7 owners. Showing up with an F55 and only Canon glass will kill the cache of the camera and the longer focus throw is a significant practical advantage. There are also optical differences between cine glass and DSLR glass. Most clients frankly won't see it it but they are there. So the typical F5/55 owner will have a substantial investment in glass.

However when it comes to other features the FS7 has a practical advantage. Its lighter and better for handholding. Access to Sony lenses like the 18-200 and 18-105 bring the shooter a tremendous zoom range without having to lug around a bunch of lenses. Those lenses and the EF lenses with metabones offer Image stabilization which is a very big deal for hand held work and nonexistent with PL glass. Likewise speed booster allows an extra stop for low light shooting and the chance to get those creamy extra low DOF images that directors seem to love these days. Admittedly some of these are typically desired by DPs with small crews and less time.

(There is some crossover - I think F5/55 can get EF adapters with IS and the FS7 can use PL glass.)

Having come from an F3 whose form factor is closer to an F5/55 I'm quite excited to be working with the options E mount buys me. I don't think going into menus will slow me down much as most of it is set up for the style of shooting I will be doing. Once we're going I dot expect the need to go into menus that much.

The LUT issue and the slow iris dial are significant issues though . I also find the lack of white balance and selectable Kelvinvin green/magenta bias in CINE EI a real drag also but some of these are the same in all 3 cameras and make RED or Alexa more attractive than any of them.

Lenny
 
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FS7 you can select your WB in cine ei mode from 3200 or 5600 - just like on the f3 in 4444 mode - same 2 options. The LUT issue will probably be solved soon. And speed booster on the fs7 gives you a full frame lens - you can't do that on the f55 or f5. And an extra stop. I can't wait to test that out. Actually this alone may convince me to buy it.
 
Lenilenapi said:
I think the difference between F5/55 & FS7 is much greater than simply the cost difference between the cameras. The F5/55 really sing when they are coupled with PL lenses and those are far more expensive than the kind of DSLR lenses that will be typical for FS7 owners. Showing up with an F55 and only Canon glass will kill the cache of the camera and the longer focus throw is a significant practical advantage. There are also optical differences between cine glass and DSLR glass. Most clients frankly won't see it it but they are there. So the typical F5/55 owner will have a substantial investment in glass.

However when it comes to other features the FS7 has a practical advantage. Its lighter and better for handholding. Access to Sony lenses like the 18-200 and 18-105 bring the shooter a tremendous zoom range without having to lug around a bunch of lenses. Those lenses and the EF lenses with metabones offer Image stabilization which is a very big deal for hand held work and nonexistent with PL glass. Likewise speed booster allows an extra stop for low light shooting and the chance to get those creamy extra low DOF images that directors seem to love these days. Admittedly some of these are typically desired by DPs with small crews and less time.

(There is some crossover - I think F5/55 can get EF adapters with IS and the FS7 can use PL glass.)

Having come from an F3 whose form factor is closer to an F5/55 I'm quite excited to be working with the options E mount buys me. I don't think going into menus will slow me down much as most of it is set up for the style of shooting I will be doing. Once we're going I dot expect the need to go into menus that much.

The LUT issue and the slow iris dial are significant issues though . I also find the lack of white balance and selectable Kelvinvin green/magenta bias in CINE EI a real drag also but some of these are the same in all 3 cameras and make RED or Alexa more attractive than any of them.

Lenny
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I will share my situation. I could have purchased an F5 and I was about to purchase an F5 when I learned about the Fs7. I do EPK or "behind the scenes" on feature films. Previously I was using a Sony EX3 most often. But now the clients want the look of s35, the shallower depth of field. The EPK producers started requesting the F5 or the C300. I was using a rental F5 but found that it is difficult to be stealthy and low key on set with an F5 on your shoulder, the F5's cables jutting out of it's side and what-not. Cables that sometimes became snagged on light stands when I was trying to fit into a very tight spot with two huge Alexa rigs , Operators, focus pullers, and a set photographer. The EX3 allowed me to shoot with the camera at hip level or at stomach level, thus bringing less attention to myself. The servo zoom on the Ex3 with it's decent range also facilitated BTS shooting. With the F5 I was inevitably on the 'wrong' lens. I put the wide zoom on the camera and something takes place where I need a long lens. I have the long lens on the camera and suddenly I need a wide of the entire set.

The Fs7 is damn near perfectly designed for what I need. I can give clients the s35 look and I still have a very light camera that I can operate without the camera being on my shoulder, from hip level. I can better fit into tight spaces with the Fs7. The BP batteries are small and lightweight. I can carry two extra batteries in a cargo pants pocket. While operationally less than desired, the 18-105mm just about covers all my needs. Soon I will be using the FE 28-135mm. That's right...a wide range servo zoom with iris control on the lens. Try that for less than $30k, F5 owners. Oh, and look ma'...no adapters!

Now the beauty of the Fs7 is that I can also turn it into a more sophisticated camera. I can put a PL mount Cooke Mini S prime or Cabrio zoom on it. With the extension unit, full-size V-mount batteries, VCT baseplate, PL glass, rods, matte box, Small HD monitor on an israeli arm...it suddenly becomes in essence an F5. It would look every bit at home shooting a commercial, political, or any high-end production. And its cranking out 4k, RAW, Prores, slow motion- just about anything a client wants. ( I have NEVER had anyone request a camera with a global shutter. ).

For me it was as if someone said to me 'hey, how about I eliminate those awkward cables sticking out of the side of the F5, move the F5's headphone jack to a location that doesn't stick into your face, make the F5 able to dual-slot record, make the F5 able to run on BP batteries, make the F5 so it can easily use e-mount glass, A-mount glass, Canon FD glass, and all the classic Leica glass...AND I'll only charge you less than HALF the cost of the F5.'

If this was a Faustian bargain with some catch to it, I have yet to encounter that catch.

I just informed a client that I have acquired a Sony F7, the new version of the Sony F5 that now does dual slot recording and offers greater lens options. There are no doubt DP's who will demand an F5 over an Fs7 and I myself will no doubt at times wish I had an F5 instead of an Fs7. But I don't foresee many clients demanding an F5 over an Fs7. Why would they when the F5 is two less than an F7? :)
 
I think Im seeing some clarity here.

The F5/55 were designed as crew cameras. (Red bashers!)

For example the XLR sticking straight out could actually be easier for an A/C to use than the angled XLR on the FS7. Of course PL et al. lend them selves to crew shoots.

The price point, ND and various features of the 5/55 lead people (like me) to consider them as tools for solo operation. Something Sony had not really considered.

Sony realised this new market and started pedalling manically to try and make the 5/55 into solo cameras by dinking the firmware.

This peddaling and dinking is a failure as the form has some critical errors that make it no good for solo work.

I evaluated the F5 as a solo camera but missing audio pots, bad headphone positioning et al. made me realise that is was just not a tool I could go solo with - I passed.

The 5/55 remain superb 'crew' cameras (where for instance the operator is unlikely to have anything to do with sound at all!)

So time moves on and the 'Solo Operator with some budget is basically left considering C300 C500 FS700 - all have critical flaws. (thin codec, cost/messy recorder, thin codec)

Sony see the hole for the Solo op cam and release the FS7 - priced and built for the 'wedding shooter'.

What Sony failed to see (or at least cater for) is that there is a market for 'elite solo op' cameras.

Such a camera would be similar in form to the FS7 but have a build and pricepoint on par with the F55.

I would buy it.

The Amera is not that 'elite solo op' camera as it is too heavy.



S
 
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I think that is more or less accurate though I would go further. My impression is that Sony engineers never quite got how most DP's work in the video world. Perhaps they didn't talk to them enough, or perhaps Japanese DP's work differently. Hence they have this idea that they are making camera for a DP on big film shoot. Everything you said about designing a "crew camera" derives from this, and everything I keep complaining about LUT's and color adjustments also comes from the Sony's idea that they should emulate "film style" production.

With both camera design and LUT's , they tend to not get how nearly all professional DP's want the flexibility to work in different situations , solo or crewed, controlled lighting or un controlled, needing a good monitor image and not needing one…etc

RED also went about trying to make as camera designed for "crew work", but they did understand more about how a video DP wants to be able to monitor the final image and they made that aspect of the camera very fast & flexible. I.e. Kelvin, iris and ISO adjustments are right at the tip of your fingers even though they're only Metadata. One good LUT is all you need and it carries into post very easily. I hate to hold up RED as a the ideal simple camera, but they did do some stuff right. RED is much weaker as a solo camera even than an F5 though. That just wasn't the market they went for.

FS7 has the potential to be both a great "elite solo op" cam or switch into a decent "crew camera" , but it does have some kinks to iron out. Meanwhile we'll all figure out how to get around them in our own ways.

Lenny
 
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