I'm not talking about the features that you "need" being image stuff....
Im saying if you need things like dual link, Genlock, 3D capability, sLog workflow... etc....
Is the F3 worth the extra $k?
- Thread starter Douglas Villalba
- Start date
I'm not talking about the features that you "need" being image stuff....
Im saying if you need things like dual link, Genlock, 3D capability, sLog workflow... etc....
starcentral
Veteran
Needs are needs.
Andrew Stone
Veteran
I do not doubt that for the VAST majority of people here the FS100 would work for over 90% of what they do. You bring up some caveats though in the stuff I have quoted you on above and Timur has mentioned the I/O from the back of the camera that many of us need. The FS100 doesn't have it... plain & simple.
In a couple of short years I have amassed an ecosystem of external devices that rely on HD-SDI as will many others. I suspect with the kind of shooting you have done in the past that the people you play with are going to quickly evolving into an HD-SDI dependent workflow and you will be brought into it.
Sounds like you are almost headed in the direction of an FS100. The purchase is reasonable enough in this biz that, if you find it is unsuitable, you should be able to offload it easily without loosing your shirt on the transaction.
-Andrew
I have a Macpro, 2.8 Ghz dual quadcore, 8gb ram, quadro fx 4000 for Mac. I heard Premiere Pro handles Red footage very well. Changing from Final Cut Pro 7 to Premiere is obviously not what I have dreamt of doing in the very recent past, but with FCPX I'm seriously thinking about a switch. What is your experience with RED footage and workflow with Premiere? Do I really need a Red Rocket? maybe this is getting off topic.
I know that with the F3 and SLOG I would be getting easily manageable in post footage: I would be using something like the Sound Devices Pix 240 for SDI capture, Apple Prores 4:2:2 HQ, and direct into FCP 7. But the way I've been dealt from the Sony people has been terrible. And that is really putting me off from the camera. Its like I'm begging someone to sell me something. And more and more, with these recent announcements, I feel like it will be worth the wait. I sent an Email to Red, for example, and they promptly responded. It was not what I wanted to hear, but it was well written and dealt with the costumer with respect.
A 5D III I can purchase without any second thoughts. in fact, I will probably purchase with my main camera due to its unique full frame look.
So what would be the pros and cons of going F3 vs Epic S?
F3 PROS
Great 1080p picture right out of the box.
Easy and not so hardware demanding post.
SLOG
Not so expensive support gear and accessories
One can purchase it NOW
Accessible price (In the US, at least)
PL Mount
CONS
Terrible costumer support over here (Hong-Kong)
Form factor (clumsy, big, unbalanced without a support rig)
PL Mount- I don't own PL mount lenses, and don't have the possibility to rent lenses over here. Prohibitive rental prices from Hong-Kong (due to need of international insurance)
Birger mount unavailable for my L EOS lenses
Only 720p 60 Slow motion recording- cinedeck not an option for my type of shooting.
EPIC-S
Pros:
5K- excellent for 1080p Reframing, as well as for mastering
2K 120fps (rumored)
Red RAW- How does this compare to SLOG?
HDR
Form factor
Marketability- "yes, we are shooting Red Epic"
CONS
Not available yet.
Clumsy workflow? (anyone can put a clearer picture on this?)
Uncertain about Shipping and service
Very expensive additional gear- EVF, Batteries, redrocket, Red Modules, etc.
Stability? Constant updates a plus and a minus?
Its really a difficult decision!!
@MPB, yes indeed. I've been shooting and doing their TVC's for more than 5 years, now. Wow, time passes fast...
Duke M.
Veteran
Sergio, this is really off topic since the OP was comparing the FS100 and F3, but I think you've already answered your own questions without knowing it.
If you need the camera now the answer is F3. Especially since lens adapters have made Nikon lenses such a great addition to F3 kits (as you said you can't access PL lenses.) Nikon lenses are available everywhere, are cheaper and produce just as good of an image and you can color match sets. (They have mechanical issues, but most people can live with that.)
First, the Epic-S isn't available and your list of pros and cons isn't valid. The Epic-S specs are subject to change. The Epic-S release date is subject to change. Red has changed specs, prices and release dates of many/most of their products. Its impossible to make an informed decision until they are firm.
Second, if you can't access PL lenses for the F3 then you can't access them for the Epic-S. The F3 PL adapter is removable in 2 seconds and there are several Nikon and EOS adapters. How many adapters are there for the Epic-S? How easy is the Epic-S mount to change? (Don't know yet? Red one required removing bolts and wasn't recommended in the field.)
Third, software handling Red footage natively isn't the same as saying it will be easy. As you noted things like a Red Rocket become more of a necessity than a desire. Download a bunch of red clips and start working with them on your computer. Stack a time line like you are doing green screens and special effects. There are distinct advantages (reframing is one you mentioned) and disadvantages (as with anything in life).
My point is, you can't compare the two at this time and when you do there is more than camera specs to compare.
starcentral
Veteran
Sergio, you listed some great points.
Epic is a lot of money for reframing a 5k image for what might only end up being a quick cut on screen, this can be done with HD too if "really" needed. Anyway like Duke says, its not even available so who know what it will have and what it will cost.
Back to the thread which Douglas started, is the F3 worth the extra $k? If you can afford it, yes, then I think it is definitely worth the extra $k for many reasons, features, purposes and needs mentioned here that you may not have today but might have tomorrow. I'm not saying the F3 is future-proof because nothing is, but for a decade now working to get cinematic images out of standard 60i video I always told myself when something like this comes out I'm getting it no matter what. No more work arounds, no more 35mm adapters, no more B@#%S*&!~ or compromise. And it has a PL lens mount, HD-SDI, 3D link, and RAW/SLOG image option? That is partly why the announcement of RED was so exciting in 2006 and that camera was definitely ahead of its time for its cost. I blew $10k on just a P+S technic 35mm adapter alone, a RED One for $17k at the time was a steal. $14k for the F3 (working out of the box) is also a steal plus you can use standard accessories for it like $100 batteries from Hong Kong
But seriously, I'm no Sony fan but with Sony you have access to using standard accessories around the world.
P.S. I was in Macau in 2008, man it was so cool there... I'd love to go back and visit one day. The funniest thing I experienced was -4 degree air conditioning in all the stores who leave the front doors wide open, or have no doors at all
Epic is a lot of money for reframing a 5k image for what might only end up being a quick cut on screen, this can be done with HD too if "really" needed. Anyway like Duke says, its not even available so who know what it will have and what it will cost.
Back to the thread which Douglas started, is the F3 worth the extra $k? If you can afford it, yes, then I think it is definitely worth the extra $k for many reasons, features, purposes and needs mentioned here that you may not have today but might have tomorrow. I'm not saying the F3 is future-proof because nothing is, but for a decade now working to get cinematic images out of standard 60i video I always told myself when something like this comes out I'm getting it no matter what. No more work arounds, no more 35mm adapters, no more B@#%S*&!~ or compromise. And it has a PL lens mount, HD-SDI, 3D link, and RAW/SLOG image option? That is partly why the announcement of RED was so exciting in 2006 and that camera was definitely ahead of its time for its cost. I blew $10k on just a P+S technic 35mm adapter alone, a RED One for $17k at the time was a steal. $14k for the F3 (working out of the box) is also a steal plus you can use standard accessories for it like $100 batteries from Hong Kong
But seriously, I'm no Sony fan but with Sony you have access to using standard accessories around the world. P.S. I was in Macau in 2008, man it was so cool there... I'd love to go back and visit one day. The funniest thing I experienced was -4 degree air conditioning in all the stores who leave the front doors wide open, or have no doors at all
Sergio, you listed some great points.
Epic is a lot of money for reframing a 5k image for what might only end up being a quick cut on screen, this can be done with HD too if "really" needed. Anyway like Duke says, its not even available so who know what it will have and what it will cost.
Back to the thread which Douglas started, is the F3 worth the extra $k? If you can afford it, yes, then I think it is definitely worth the extra $k for many reasons, features, purposes and needs mentioned here that you may not have today but might have tomorrow. I'm not saying the F3 is future-proof because nothing is, but for a decade now working to get cinematic images out of standard 60i video I always told myself when something like this comes out I'm getting it no matter what. No more work arounds, no more 35mm adapters, no more B@#%S*&!~ or compromise. And it has a PL lens mount, HD-SDI, 3D link, and RAW/SLOG image option? That is partly why the announcement of RED was so exciting in 2006 and that camera was definitely ahead of its time for its cost. I blew $10k on just a P+S technic 35mm adapter alone, a RED One for $17k at the time was a steal. $14k for the F3 (working out of the box) is also a steal plus you can use standard accessories for it like $100 batteries from Hong Kong
P.S. I was in Macau in 2008, man it was so cool there... I'd love to go back and visit one day. The funniest thing I experienced was -4 degree air conditioning in all the stores who leave the front doors wide open, or have no doors at all
Starcentral, thank you, very good points. Food for thought and definitely very helpful!
Sorry all, I made this go off topic.
PS- Starcentral, you probably came on the worst time of the year: Summer
Its hot and humid, indeed. Better time should be in the Grand Prix season, November, End of October. If you ever come by, PM me Sergio
Why not get the FS100 now, earn some money with it until the EPIC-S is available and sell it then (or keep it as a B-cam)? It can take any kind of glass with cheap adapters and the sensor is the same as the F3's. If you are not going to use PL glass or the S-log option (with pretty expensive recording) that might be an option too…
Well, the problem with the FS100 is that it feels to me like a DSLR without the moire and aliasing. Yes, it has all the advantages of a video camera, like excelent LCD, XLR inputs, even HDMI 4:4:4 8bit output, but... It still feels like not much of a significant jump vs the SLOG f3 picture at 10 bit.
Your reasoning makes absolute sense, i could get this camera for the Macau Grand Prix, it even gives me on board 1080 60p, but the problem is there's no used marketplace here. If I wanted to sell it online I couldn't post it on ebay, for example, since ebay doesn't recognize Macau, even paypal. So I have a much smaller potential buying group for this camera. It means that I would have less 5 000 USD on my budget to purchase a better camera. If I went for the F3, I would most certainly be using it for 2 to 3 years untill the Epic line went, well, stable and affordable, or the other big guns came out with revolutionary alternatives.
Another interesting option I'm pondering is of a used Red One MX. A friend of mine is offering me a deal on one, I don't know what he will ask for it, but it seems like a possible way to go. My only concern is how mobile the Red One can get. I've never "worked" myself with the Red One. Tried it in a closed setup in a production house and actually oversaw a couple of big budget shoots with it- with big crews- but never seen how this cam can work in a Guerrilla environment- a one man operation in a racing weekend. Again, probably going off topic (sorry for that), anyone with experience in a one man sports shoot with the Red One?
Your reasoning makes absolute sense, i could get this camera for the Macau Grand Prix, it even gives me on board 1080 60p, but the problem is there's no used marketplace here. If I wanted to sell it online I couldn't post it on ebay, for example, since ebay doesn't recognize Macau, even paypal. So I have a much smaller potential buying group for this camera. It means that I would have less 5 000 USD on my budget to purchase a better camera. If I went for the F3, I would most certainly be using it for 2 to 3 years untill the Epic line went, well, stable and affordable, or the other big guns came out with revolutionary alternatives.
Another interesting option I'm pondering is of a used Red One MX. A friend of mine is offering me a deal on one, I don't know what he will ask for it, but it seems like a possible way to go. My only concern is how mobile the Red One can get. I've never "worked" myself with the Red One. Tried it in a closed setup in a production house and actually oversaw a couple of big budget shoots with it- with big crews- but never seen how this cam can work in a Guerrilla environment- a one man operation in a racing weekend. Again, probably going off topic (sorry for that), anyone with experience in a one man sports shoot with the Red One?
starcentral
Veteran
If your job is to shoot and shoot only, on the shooting side it won't really matter much FS100, AF100, F3, RED One or EPIC...
The difference is going to be more on the post end of things and workflow as I had mentioned before. RED is tempting I agree, the F3 package I want is going to cost me $20k anyway (bare cam with batteries and cards) so definitely gets you thinking about things....
The difference is going to be more on the post end of things and workflow as I had mentioned before. RED is tempting I agree, the F3 package I want is going to cost me $20k anyway (bare cam with batteries and cards) so definitely gets you thinking about things....