Is the F3 worth the extra $k?

i'm sure you're right. i mean though it wouldn't be difficult to put out a far more usable version of this camera. proper viewfinder, usable zoom, etc. maybe no one will. but as attractive as the camera is, its deficits (and their associated costs) are;

1) not insignificant
2) fairly easily addressed by a willing manufacturer
 
That has pros and cons too. What you consider a proper EVF if you're doing ENG, I may not if I'm doing narrative. And what you want for a codec for BBC/Discovery, may not be what I want if I'm pushing the indie film circuit hoping for a proper theatrical release. This allows us to choose.
 
Good point Duke--I appreciate the options. Although some of the F3 stuff drives me mad, and S-Log pains me to purchase, what other options do you have in the same price arena?
 
i think it's great that people can embrace the camera as it is. gawd bless you, every one.

but however embraceable the f3 might be, that's kind of side-stepping what i was getting at. which... is fine.
 
i think it's great that people can embrace the camera as it is. gawd bless you, every one.

but however embraceable the f3 might be, that's kind of side-stepping what i was getting at. which... is fine.

I don't think it was side stepped at all. The problem is if you include all the things that people want in one camera pretty soon you are up to the price of an Alexa. An Alexa is a mighty fine camera, but its far out of the reach of most of the people on this board.

The F3 was specifically aimed at the low budget indie market. By providing a camera with somewhat minimal characteristics in some regards, but very high end characteristics in other regards, we can build a camera to suit our needs without paying for what we don't need.

I totally agree that its best to keep the fiddly little bits off the camera. But many of us started with something like an HV20 with a 35mm adapter, then an HMC150, XH-A1, or EX1 with an adapter. Adding an external recorder and an external monitor is nothing new. I just want them to be attached in a sturdy manner, to be reliable, and produce superb results.

Certainly Sony has kept the price point below what Red has been able to do in an S35 sensor. In my mind this is about as close as you are going to get to a true democratization of film making because good equipment does cost. And, since I rarely do hand held so I wouldn't want them to add on $2k for a really good EVF.

I think my F3 is (finally) up to the sturdy along with reliable and superb results standard. I had to add a monitor, recorder, top plate, rails and mattebox. But if a better monitor/EVF system comes along I can change that. And I'm below the $20k fully equiped price point. I view the Red One MX as the nearest competitor and its $25k without lenses, batteries, rails, mattebox, etc.
 
ok, so maybe "side-step" was the wrong term. i would have thought it was clear from the context of my initial statement that i was commenting on the potential "legs" of the camera in the context of what might come next, from sony or elsewhere.

i never made mention of codecs, for better or worse.

the issues i raised concern form-factor and versatility. if sony were to release another version of this camera with an ex3-alike viewfinder and a usable zoom, many who are on the fence now would buy it in a heartbeat. some might even sell their current versions to buy it.

i'm not really sure what kind of user would find a usable viewfinder a hinderance. and an inexpensive kit zoom doesn't prevent your using whatever dslr or pl mount glass you might have available.

so, to reiterate since i apparently haven't been explicit enough, at present there are many attractive reasons to own an f3. whether it proves to be as attractive next year depends to a great extent on what else the market brings us. i understand that many folks have come to think of the modular camera paradigm as acceptable or even preferable. but just as the f3 was a necessary and inevitable answer to the influence of dslr-based video, i wouldn't be surprised if someone finished the sentence.
 
I'm sure that Sony will release another version in 12-18 months with different features and a different price point (ala the EX3). Just look at the zoom toggle and the zoom lenses. I'm sure they have plans to expand their offerings. Its only a matter of which extra features they offer.
 
Over the FS100, it is a lot of money if you don't need the extent of what SLOG offers. Still I am having a hard time deciding between the two, even if money is not a determining factor. I am picking up one of the two next month.

Hey is it true the Sony PL's won't work on other cams that have a PL mount ?
 
Over the FS100, it is a lot of money if you don't need the extent of what SLOG offers. Still I am having a hard time deciding between the two, even if money is not a determining factor. I am picking up one of the two next month.

Hey is it true the Sony PL's won't work on other cams that have a PL mount ?

yes, that is true.
 
Even without S-Log, the F3 has some compelling advantages. Maybe not compelling enough for you, but there are certainly other features you're paying for:

- 10-bit SDI output
- timecode in/out
- genlock port
- Internal ND filters
- native PL mount support, with lens data connection
- more picture profile controls

If you don't need any of those features... maybe the FS100 or AF100 are right for you.
 
I think the deciding factor is this: if you NEED an f3 the descision is clear. If there is any doubt in your mind, or back and forth descision making get the FS.

Think if you can afford the additional $8,000. Chances are if your work demands the benfits of the F3, the 8k is no big deal. If 8k makes you cringe, its not the best choice for you. You should be comfortable with your camera choice.

Hence why the AF100 is such a deal. Offers a lot of the functionality, without the cost, but with a good image.
 
I'd love to have an Epic. It should be the camera for us all, the end all be all camera for indie filmmakers, the cutting edge, the artistic tool that would truly make filmmaking what it should've been since the beginning, about the art, the artist and its talent. But its not. Irony of ironies, it ends up being a Sony camera the one that gives Indie filmmakers a chance to fight the big boys... I still remember RED's beginnings and "Raison d'etre"- to democratize Filmmaking, to create a true cinema camera for the independent filmmaker. Heck, I still remember when Red would speak in this forum enthusiastically. With the creation of Reduser, less and less Red people post here ("official" people, not dvxusers that migrated there. The majority of those still post here) . It seems like a good metaphor to what Red as become: it has "abandoned" the DVXUSER's and embraced the high end, the Big Studios, the ones that had it in the first place. its true that RED created a revolution in the high end market, it made the old establishment change their approach (and pricing), but we over here at the lower budgets, the true independents, not the rental houses, the medium sized companies, but the independent filmmakers, the young artists, the new creative force of the digital era that needed the revolution to bring fresh ideas and content to the industry- we were just left behind. The true changing moment for us indies was when we got "lucky" when a Big manufacturer "mistakenly" opened the Pandora's box- CANON- with the video capabilities of the 5D Mark II. It was indeed this camera that changed the landscape for us: not putting down the previous 35mm adapter movement which was a revolution on itself, but the 5D and VDSLR's really opened true cinematography capabilities for the "have nots", or the independent creative, filmmaker.

Maybe Red are trying to make their money back from their initial investment. Maybe they have in the medium or long term a plan to create a camera for us that would "level" the field. It makes sense. However, in my view, of course, RED is now somehow a bit of a "slave" of their marketing: They don't want to piss off their current base of costumers with introducing a cheaper camera that can produce similar results to their expensive equipment. They cannot introduce a S35 Scarlet at an AF100 price range not because of manufacturing price or profit margins, but because it can (this is my opinion) bring down the rental market and perceived value of the Epic. In the end, it happened to RED what we all have been criticizing the Old Big Players- Protection to their Higher end gear.

Back to the F3, then. This one I can afford. I'm not thinking on recouping my money with this purchase, or renting it, but owning it to produce short films and content that I know technically can be accepted for all possible distribution paths. The F3 is really DVXuser's RED Camera, in my opinion. I never really liked Sony cameras, even though my first prosumer camera was a TRV 900 3CCD camera that produced excellent images ( I remember using slow shutter to "emulate 25p :) ). But I'm here, in DVXUSER, for a reason. First, I would like to know when is Panasonic introducing a HPX 400, an AF100 with P2, AVC-Intra, better sensor to compete with the F3 with a Log option? Answering my own rethorical question :) I'm in DVXUSER because back in 2003 I bought a DVX100, a fantastic camera that gave me cinegamma, 25p and an image that made my then employer's engineers (the local broadcast channel) jaw drop. After that, it was the HVX200, a powerhouse HD camera that was much, much better than the crappy HDV counterparts from the competition and was used in feature films. Now, Panasonic, the Af100 was an interesting camera, but Sony truly outperformed you this round, may it be with the Fs100 or the f3 (which you don't have a competing product to)

Anyway, looking at how things are going, I'll be getting a Sony F3 by the end of October (Unless Canon or Panasonic brings a surprise in the coming months- not much hope for Panasonic since I need a camera by the end October and usually takes them from announcement to launch more than 3 months...)

There is nothing wrong with having a high-end. Too much democratization just means $250 a day for the rest of your life with nothing better to hope for.
 
Also, the epic is hardly the endall be all.... its got plusses minuses like everything else...
 
Wait until some of the smaller indie companies start dealing with file sizes from Epic 5K acquisition and what it takes to edit and read them in real time.
 
Ok, everyone, big dilema time: my deadline is end of October, early November for my next camera purchase. I need a camera to cover my main event of the season from which I make one of my most important International broadcasted TVC's :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoRYrjtqi7s (by the way, that was 95 percent recorded with DSLR's, from 5D, 1Dmark IV to 7D). I really want to go back to conventional professional video cameras. As you may probably have noticed, I'm really, really interested in the F3, however, Canon Rumors just posted a CR2 rumor of a 5D mark III for October. My question is not that I prefer the Mark III for the F3, but is really because of the EPIC-S. The EPIC X Model is about to ship early next week, which means there's a remote possibility of the Epic S actually coming out sooner than later, lets say in the next 4 months or so. 5K or 4K with HDR is really an improvement from 1080p, no question about it. So my question is, should I go for the F3 now? One thing pushing me closer to the F3 is the fact Birger just announced they are going to put F3 compatibility out FIRST vs the FS100 mount, which would mean a possible usage for this year's Macau Grand Prix. However, I have had a terrible time with Sony Professional Broadcast services over here. I've sent them emails, and no replies. Called them twice, and once was left waiting on the line for more than 15 minutes, the other one I got was "we'll call you". I had to go through a reseller that i searched on google, which quoted me-and this is no taxes Hong-Kong we're talking about!- 15.6K USD for the F3 (no Slog). So, yes, a bit of a rant, but I'm in a bit of a tight spot. What would you guys do in my position?
 
Sergio, do you know the difference between 5D, F3, F3 w. S-LOG, and Epic X in terms of post production workflows?

Your answer to which camera may lie in there.
 
Last edited:
I think the deciding factor is this: if you NEED an f3 the descision is clear. If there is any doubt in your mind, or back and forth descision making get the FS.

Think if you can afford the additional $8,000. Chances are if your work demands the benfits of the F3, the 8k is no big deal. If 8k makes you cringe, its not the best choice for you. You should be comfortable with your camera choice.

Hence why the AF100 is such a deal. Offers a lot of the functionality, without the cost, but with a good image.

Timur, you have said this before but I disagree since what some NEED may not be clear or they are still evaluating their needs. That is part of the point of this thread, figuring out what you need. Obviously if you know what you need then you are all set and off to the races!

I don't NEED the F3 because I know I can make crappy camera footage look good in post. I use lighting for my shots and know what I can do to an image further in post, not everyone is like that. Having said that the FS100 will suit my NEEDS, but, if I want to think about getting paid for more work and getting hired the F3 certainly will over the FS100 because I can sell "the camera" (sad to say but true yes) to potential clients as the "DSLR Killer".

As for the AF100 it is not in this league since it is not super 35mm. I am not saying it can't make GREAT images, I've just shot using the super 35mm frame for 6 years and have no plans at all to go to smaller sensor.
 
Last edited:
oh yeah... i'd never plan to use equipment on a shoot until i had it - all of it - in my hands (figuratively), with enough time to test it. have a Plan A. the purchase is another matter.
 
Back
Top