Is the F3 worth the extra $k?

HelenOster said:
Please accept my apology for any inconvenience or disappointment that has ever been caused by any member of the Adorama staff team. We have numerous competent and well trained sales associates all of whom who we expect to be considerate of our customers.

However, it sounds from your posting that you have not been served as you quite rightly should have expected, and I would welcome additional information in order that I can investigate this as quickly as possible.

If you would like to email me with additional identifying information, Helen@adorama.com, I will work with the team manager to take whatever action is necessary to ensure that this will not happen again; we would also welcome the opportunity to make this up to you.

Once again my apologies, and I look forward to hearing back from you.
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d'oh!

all goofing around aside, i've always been quite happy shopping at Adorama. the low rental prices though... there's no way owner/operators can compete, and that smarts.
 
I've been very happy with Adorama when it comes to customer service, employees attitude and especially prices. However, I always cross my fingers that my clients havent seen Adorama's rates when I bill them for my personal equipment usage.
 
Under cutting is bad. IT sets a bad standard, and a bad example, in the NY film industry. I dont know what the pricing plan is about, but its unfair. Sure i could give up my F3 for tha price, but i'd be risking damage, and i wouldnt be making any money. I have a narrow narrow profit margin as it is considering the loan i have to pay off.
 
times are tough. i've been amazed at how low a couple of nyc rental houses go when a good haggler (not me) got on the phone. i was undercut so far on one job, i walked away. and the rental house that undercut me is the one i absolutely love, and will continue to take my business to. no sense crying about it.
 
I think that people with F3's should really consider this as an owner/operator cam more than a rental, or rentable equipment. Its rental rates are never going to be worth the potential risk of damage. The only cameras that are still worth for rentals are either ENG 2/3 4:2:2 cameras , Red and Alexa. This camera is all about the results you get from it with minimal crew. Its a great Stock footage cam, for example. I would recoup my investment with projects and shooting stock in no time.
 
TimurCivan said:
Under cutting is bad. IT sets a bad standard, and a bad example, in the NY film industry. I dont know what the pricing plan is about, but its unfair. Sure i could give up my F3 for tha price, but i'd be risking damage, and i wouldnt be making any money. I have a narrow narrow profit margin as it is considering the loan i have to pay off.
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Timur, you have cooke's and higher end stuff. Not directly comparable to a sony PL or Nikon lens set.
 
SPZ said:
I think that people with F3's should really consider this as an owner/operator cam more than a rental, or rentable equipment. Its rental rates are never going to be worth the potential risk of damage. The only cameras that are still worth for rentals are either ENG 2/3 4:2:2 cameras , Red and Alexa. This camera is all about the results you get from it with minimal crew. Its a great Stock footage cam, for example. I would recoup my investment with projects and shooting stock in no time.
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i could be mistaken, but i think what folks are talking about regarding being undercut is mostly what they can charge as owner/operators.

it certainly bothers me when rental houses or other owner/ops are practically giving away their equipment. (well, only the equipment that i own.) Adorama's rental prices have and will cost me money. but whaddya gonna do? sucks for the rest of us, but they aren't responsible to me, or to the community or industry. i have to wonder if rental isn't a loss-leader for Adorama at those prices. but we all have to do whatever it takes to keep the phone ringing.
 
I'm a bit lost here - Is this discussion about Adorama's rental rates or rental rates in general? I know in San Francisco the standard rate for F3 without lenses is $450 ( no sticks either). I think that's a little cheaper than I expected it to be. $345 at Adorama does sound very low and I agree with Timur about undercutting.O n the QT as an owner-op I have made all sorts of deals for people when I'm hungry or want to get them used to the camera. I have completely given it away. But I always let them know what the real rental price is and presume they will be paying full price on another shot. Otherwise you are helping the bar drop lower and lower for everyone including yourself.
 
MPB said:
times are tough. i've been amazed at how low a couple of nyc rental houses go when a good haggler (not me) got on the phone. i was undercut so far on one job, i walked away. and the rental house that undercut me is the one i absolutely love, and will continue to take my business to. no sense crying about it.
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Yes of course, panavision will practically give away a camera nowadays, but they won't advertise that price. That's basically asking to be haggled even lower.
 
I agree about the undercutting from the huge rental houses in NY/LA/CHI---I often get calls to meet their prices and I really just have to laugh and tell them we don't have one hundred F3's or EX3's in Houston, we have about 4 of each in this whole town---we get real rates that get us a decent return on our investment vs. the risk. Disagree with "rental rates are never going to be worth the potential risk of damage". I've been doing this for over 25 years and it's really about WHO you rent to---these cameras with their complexity automatically weed out the amateurs and pull in the pros, which is my rental base here. Insurance is key to sleeping at night, but because I rent to pro's I've never filed a claim. They take care of it because they will use it again and again. Be particular, and the rental business can help you pay off your gear quicker and build a better package. Re rates, keep in mind, back in the day $60K Betacam packages in Texas rented for $600/day, much less everywhere else around the country. But here's the real dilemma nobody is addressing---in Texas production day rates have been $1200-1500/day for a camera and two man crew for 20+ years. Doesn't matter if it's a betacam or a dvcam or hvx or EX3 or anything less than what was then HDCAM and Varicam or film cameras, which were minimum $2000/day with 2 man crew. And if a producer from NY/LA is calling, they want it for much much less (which I do not do). The Alexa/Epic are now in the upper tier separating the F3 from the juicy day rates. I don't think the F3 will change the average Texas day rate very much at all. It's sad, really. But you have to do what the market will bear, wherever you are. An Alexa is $1500 day for the $85K body. Getting a third of that rate for the F3 body is actually a VERY fast return on your investment. I know owners that do not rent their gear, and I respect that. I just love the rental aspect of my business. It affords me more toys for my own productions.
 
Its hard to compare to rental rates back in the day because back then a Betacam camera had a useable lifetime for as long as 10 years. 2-3 is plenty these days. I'm hoping the F3 will have legs b ut who knows what's around the corner.
 
I think the F3 will be around for about 3 years. W/ SLog maybe 4.

Though I'm looking at an epic for next year.
 
Do it. We've only shot this past weekend with ours and absolutely love it. Can't wait to get it out in the field more.

Kegan
 
As producers, cinematographer we shouldn't be concern about low rental prices. If I had someone renting locally at $350 a day then I wouldn't be thinking of buying. It would take me 40 times just to recoup the $14,000 investment.
The only reason that ADORAMA could do those prices is because they don't pay $14,000 for the camera. Sony is the one that is loosing out when ADORAMA rents the camera that low and cutting on camera sales do to the low rental prices.
My 2 cents.
 
Dealers tend to undercut the people they sell to here, as well. It's very annoying and very unfair. And I hope they are reading this post.
 
not at all.

I still shoot red all the time. but only about 40% of the time. F3 picks up the rest. You'd be crazy to shoot Epic for everything.

One of my DITs was just on a job today shooting 60p 4K on Epic (not even 5k!) and they shot 2 TB of data in one day. he couldnt offload fast enough and ran into a bottle neck.
 
Certain cameras seem to be ahead of their time, which makes them remain popular through more camera model cycles than other cameras. As an example the DVX100 is still around, the Canon XH-A1 is in its third cycle and is still a work horse (CCD chips avoiding CMOS skew make it even more desirable in this CMOS world).

I think the Sony PMW-EX1/3's will be around a long time as there's nothing notably superior in their class for ENG, though there are a few that tie by having different features.

And I think the F3 is at the start of a long cycle. Its innovative, have a base of PMW-EX1/3 users AND its upgradeable. Those are characteristics that make a camera last in popularity.

I don't care when the Epics are really available. If a client wants it we'll rent. Epic ownership isn't worth it to me.
 
Duke M. said:
And I think the F3 is at the start of a long cycle. Its innovative, have a base of PMW-EX1/3 users AND its upgradeable. Those are characteristics that make a camera last in popularity.
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i would agree, accept for the possibility that sony or someone else might put out an f3 with a proper viewfinder.
 
I'm confident a proper HD EVF viewfinder solution will come soon. Too many companies are working towards it for it to not happen. A DP4 with EVF loupe coupled with an ET handle or Berkey plate come close.
 
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