Is the F3 worth the extra $k?

Barry I try to stay one step ahead of my market that is why I am still considering the F3. I know that the market for a little more than the 5D will be getting the FS100.
By the way Barry, What do you think is a better codec the Mpeg2 on the F3 or the h.264 on the FS100? Also can the SxS to SDHC adapter handle all flavors coming out the F3?
 
Your question is highly determinant on what "the market" is... I mean, for so many people that's a different answer. Some people want to establish themselves as rental houses. Some are promoting themselves as owner/ops. And some clients hire people based on what gear they own, and others don't care. So ... yeah, that's a very individualized, specialized term. You and only you know what your market is. If you're in competition with 5D shooters, and your clients are asking for 5D's, then having an FS100 or F3 won't matter -- if the client is specifying 5D, you give them 5D. If your competition is 5D shooters, and your client doesn't know much about cameras, then you can definitely market yourself aggressively by showing that you have a more capable, less problematic camera, etc...

Okay, codecs -- unquestionably the NXCAM codec is superior to the XDCAM codec. Not even a doubt in my mind. I compared AVCCAM against XDCAM-EX and found that AVCCAM was notably superior when the going got rough (when in normal circumstances they looked very similar, but when taxed the AVCCAM held up better to much better). I've also compared NXCAM against AVCCAM and found them to be basically equivalent caliber codecs. Not identical -- there were some cases where AVCCAM held up better when NXCAM gave up, and some areas where NXCAM held up better when AVCCAM was going all soft, but in the many scenarios I put them through, I came to the conclusion that they're basically equivalent, basically comparable.

Now, the FS100 is a tad different in the way its codec works with its camera; it claims to have a context-adapting codec that changes its performance based on how much gain the camera is set to use. Which is fairly genius, I must say. The way I imagine it working is that they do a noise-reduction pass on the footage before sending it to the codec, and they use a noise profile based on what the gain setting of the camera is. If they've actually gone and sampled the sensor noise pattern at each gain level, and then included a noise profile for each, then it could be quite effective in reducing the grain. And when you do that, when you eliminate the noise, then you make the job of the codec much easier. Noise is hard for a codec to encode, and it will try... so if you eliminate it, you make the codec even more robust. I keep meaning to check this theory by trying a Nano vs. the onboard codec at a high gain level; if I'm right, the Nano/HDMI output should look a lot noisier than the onboard recorded footage does. If that's the case, it would mean that an external recorder is less valuable for the FS100 than it might be for other cameras.

I don't know about SxS to SDHC adapters on the F3... I think they work as long as you're not overcranking, but hopefully some F3 owners will weigh in with their actual experiences.
 
mXr adapter, with fastest sandisk sd cards you can find. any flavor, framerate, resolution, and quality setting you want on the f3 records fine on them internally.
 
That is good to know. Those SxS are still too expensive. If I could record to something like a Ninja for 422 and an SDHC Class 10 for over cranking that would save about 1k.
I haven't heard anyone mentioning the overcranking over 30 fps. One thing I absolutely love about my HVX200 (Still have it even tho I hardly ever use) is shooting at 32 and 34 frames.
Has anyone shot at 34 fps and used it together with 1080p24? (I know it is 720p24 at 34 fps)
 
The F3 can do overcranking up to 60p in 720, and it offers more options than the HVX200. With the F3 you can select any number between 0-60 fps, for either over or undercranking. Meaning, you can dial in 3fps, or you can dial in 53, whereas the HVX has a set list of options.
 
I understand that, but how does it integrate with 1080 side by side?

Oh, I forgot to ask. Can you shoot at 18 fps to simulate 8mm film without undercranking as you can with the HVX?
 
It integrates really well.

Um. You can do it as an undercrank, saving it at 24p, then use Cinema Tools to conform it back to 18fps. Should work fine.
 
There is no 18 frame conforming with Cinema Tools.
By the way, are the Sony lenses worth the $6,000 or save it and get a better used zoom lens?
Someone told me that the RED 18-85mm was crap. Anyone using it? What do you think about it?
 
Oops!

Well, I got the PMW-F3L, and the MTF nikon adapter, have a set of 6 Zeiss ZF cine-modded lenses, cost around $9k Love them.
 
Not to sound harsh, but I think if you have to ask why you need an F3, then you probably do not.
However, I think it ultimately comes down to what your clients are demanding.
 
Douglas, a couple of things that haven't been mentioned... If you are buying cinema lenses then you will definitely have to get a decent mattebox, assuming you don't have one yet and a set of ND filters. I wouldn't be cheaping out on the mattebox since you will be using it a lot. For the RED 18-85 you will need to get a very good set of rails. Should probably consider studio spaced rails and blocks as well. That lens weighs 10 pounds and the FS-100 substructure is not built like a tank where as the F3 is. Regardless, however, both cameras would need to employ a rails support for that RED lens.

The FS-100 does have a lot of admirable qualities. It is incredibly light so good for handbombing if you shoot like that, the LCD screen is ruggedly built and has a snoot with a diopter on it. The F3 does not. However once you start attaching peripherals from the video outs this is where the F3 shines and the paintbox controls are MUCH deeper although you can so some decent adjustments in the FS-100.

To repeat though if you are going to be using heavy cinema lenses, I would be looking very hard at a robust high grade mattebox paying extra attention to the filter trays and tray mechanisms, a rails rig and one complete set of NDs and backup ND glass of the ones you will use the most frequently. If you don't own this stuff yet I would begin to factor in about 5 grand for this and easily much higher.
 
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LeavingTheCandy said:
Not to sound harsh, but I think if you have to ask why you need an F3, then you probably do not.
However, I think it ultimately comes down to what your clients are demanding.
Click to expand...
Well, you see I don't follow what other people do, so I do ask. Your clients may tell you what camera to use. In my case they tell me what they need and the budget and I decide what I use. As long as I produce results they don't care if I use an iPhone.
 
Ive said this recently on another thread

I think it is best not to stretch yourself

Fully budget for spare leads loads of batteries, solid support, whatever

Im happy with EX1/DSLR/FS100 and would feel safer and more backed up than with a single F3

Just this week I shot a two cameras rolling project with the Ex and the FS - I could not have done that with just an F3

--

There are times (really beyond the scope of my work) where Jam timecode, deadline friendly XDcam , (solid link to a sat van??) and other F3 attributes may mean you must have it or a similar cam

If thats the case then buy it

if you are loaded in cash buy an F3 anyway
 
morgan_moore said:
Ive said this recently on another thread

I think it is best not to stretch yourself

Fully budget for spare leads loads of batteries, solid support, whatever

Im happy with EX1/DSLR/FS100 and would feel safer and more backed up than with a single F3

Just this week I shot a two cameras rolling project with the Ex and the FS - I could not have done that with just an F3

--

There are times (really beyond the scope of my work) where Jam timecode, deadline friendly XDcam , (solid link to a sat van??) and other F3 attributes may mean you must have it or a similar cam

If thats the case then buy it

if you are loaded in cash buy an F3 anyway
Click to expand...
I agree. I also have 4 other HD cameras.
There is not too many quality samples of the FS100. The best I've seen in Vimeo was made by my friend of a commercial for a cooking school with Nikon Lenses.
I have been researching for a couple of weeks. They both have good quality, but the F3 has a few more feature that would help on some shoots.
I still have sometime to decide, so we'll see.
 
Douglas, actually my clients sound about the same...they dictate what I use by the quality they demand. However, sometimes I challenge them to think in a new paradigm by offering them a level that they hadn't consider. Sometimes DSLR, shaky-cam is good, but sometimes something else is better. (No, I'm not busting on DSLR, I was the first on the block to have a 5D and currently am mesmerized by my GH2 with crazy lenses!) Both me and my clients see the reward is the stuff shot with my F3. It's awesome!

Oh...and for me, I'd pay the extra $ for an F3 just for the PL mount and SDI out. I can amortize it over just a few shoots. One more consideration, at least for me, when I go out with my rigged-up F3, I'd shoot up against big players with Red and Alexa from a perceived value perspective. When I show up at a shoot with a DSLR (especially my GH2) I might get booted! No matter how we feel about it and the quality it produces, perceived value is a real actuality with a lot of people. Having an F3 continues to open doors for me.
 
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