Is the CION ever going to ship?

Ebrahim Saadawi said:
About Log, the Cion as far as I know does have a gamma setting with very low contrast that looks flat and gradeable, it's not limited to rec.709
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Won't these gamma curves for the Cion still be Rec709 in camera?

I was always under the impression that no matter how flat the gamma curve was it was still Rec709. The only way to gain 12stops and above was to have a logarithmic gamma like black magic has or Canon does to get 12stops in Clog and Sony has to get 14 stops in SLog2/3. For years we have used knee to get a few more stops but with tons of highlight compression and loss of detail at the top end.
 
combatentropy said:
Hands-on video by Adorama, with a few seconds of footage
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That video did a quite bad job for promoting the camera IMHO - the highlights and the roll-off are awful.
They should give the Cion to some experienced shooters, that can make it shine.

And having experience with that chip in the BMC - no, it's definitely not a run and gun camera.
 
FrameFarmMedia said:
Won't these gamma curves for the Cion still be Rec709 in camera?
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I don't believe so no, because if the Cion couldn't deliver anything else than a standard REC.709 compliant image it would be 7-8 stops of DR camera.

It does have a very flat profile, and it has 12 stops of DR, stored in fat 12bit 444 4K files. Besides that it also has many customizable finished looks which they worked very hard to ake them pleasing and ready for delivery, I would imagine one would find NO issues with heavily pushing the image around and colouring to taste. In fact those who tried it say the image is so strong the shadows can be pushed up 2-3 stops without showing any noise/codec artefacts (but the highlights can't be pulled down much so exposing to the highlights might be the best way)
 
This is just a personal opinion. But there are only two ways I would get a Cion.

  1. They add real log and slash the price to bellow the FS7
  2. They keep the current price and add internal RAW recording, real log and built in NDs. Maybe also some sort of EVF. Better would be a better sensor in there too. But I don’t see any chance with that. But internal RAW and real log could be a possibility and so could built in NDs.

But quite honestly the sensor is the deal breaker. I don’t need ISO2000. But ISO320 is a little on the weak side these days and the actual dynamic range of the sensor is 10 stops. Blackmagic also claims 12 stops off the same sensor but many who actually tested do not agree. The specifications of the sensor say 10 stops, if they are indeed using the same sensor as Blackmagic. In the end it’s an old off the shelf under powered sensor. All the nice ergonomics in the world can’t make up for this in my opinion. At least not at this price and not at this point in the game. Again just my personal opinion. As is, the only reason to get a Cion instead of some of the other options that are out there now is if you really, really love the ergonomics and never need to shoot outside at night. Because if you have the budget to shoot outside at night with a ISO320 camera you have the budget to rent an Alexa.
 
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Postmaster said:
... They should give the Cion to some experienced shooters, that can make it shine...
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And, by "some", I would have said, "at least, half a dozen".

It's not like there's a shortage of experience camera operators in LA and New York.
 
So crazy no footage has been upped since release other than that Adorama thing, which doesn't really count. If anyone knows of any clips from the release version of the Cion, please post!

I'm almost impressed by the lack of just any footage from normal shooters.
 
L1N3ARX said:
If anyone knows of any clips from the release version of the Cion, please post!
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I think there are no clips from the release version of the Cion because it doesn't exist. I mean if anyone knows where you can actually buy one of these, pipe up, but as far as I can see it's not there yet. Which brings us back to the subject of this thread...
 
There are a bunch of footage links to download on the ... uh, New Guys thread (I think).
 
AtticusLake said:
I think there are no clips from the release version of the Cion because it doesn't exist. I mean if anyone knows where you can actually buy one of these, pipe up, but as far as I can see it's not there yet. Which brings us back to the subject of this thread...
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I know you can get them from Texas Media Systems and from EVS in Burbank, just to name two who also so happen to sponsor on DVXuser.

The URSA has been shipping since October or so. Do you see tons of footage around from that camera? Just because people are not pushing the devices on social media doesn't mean they're not buying and using them.
 
Thanks Trotter G, but I think people want to see footage from general use and from actual users! And to know if there actually ARE any users out there....even just 1!Steve
 
This whole lack of anything to see, anything to hear other than each other is really quite weird. Don't know what Jon and AJA are up to if they are indeed up to anything about the Cion. But in any case someone come and get me if they do anything. I will be in the other areas making a decision on what camera to buy. Nonsense ...
 
Be cheaper to buy a mount adapter and use stills lenses on it.

Wonder of BorrowLens actually have one or just have it in their price list?

Steve
 
First, let me say that I have not been available to check on this particular forum for some time so my apologies if it seems as though I have been absent here. I have been traveling for business reasons since the end of January and I have been busy for the past week preparing our latest CION firmware update for public release.

You can learn more about the latest v1.1 firmware update for CION, which was posted earlier today, by visiting the AJA website.

The v1.1 press release:
https://www.aja.com/en/news/top-stories/317

The v1.1 release notes:
https://static.aja.com/pdf/2015/AJA_CION_ReleaseNotes_v1.1.pdf

The support link where the latest CION firmware may be downloaded; the manual is also found in this location:
https://www.aja.com/en/products/cion#support

With respect to the CION marketing effort: additional marketing materials, including more videos, are being prepared by AJA. As far as the comments about a lack of footage from end users, as noted in this thread, not everyone who has a CION necessarily visits dvxuser.com. Additionally, not everyone who might already have a CION may be able to post footage publicly if they are working on projects for clients; clients don't always allow material from unfinished projects to be posted online, etc.

CION began shipping at the end of December. Each unit is hand tested at AJA before it is shipped. You can learn more about CION's development history and the assembly process in the most recent issue of Film and Digital Times that was just published. If you don't have access to a printed copy of this magazine, you can visit this link for the article, where you can see images of the assembly and testing beginning on page 10 of the article:
http://www.fdtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/AJA-Factory-Tour-FDTimes2.pdf

An AJA CION launch event was recently held in mid-January in Los Angeles. You can see reporting about the event and opinions of the camera in the following articles (normally I would not post re-directs to other sites, but there seems to be at least some lingering belief that the camera isn't shipping, etc.):
http://soundandpicture.com/2015/01/48-hours-aja-cion/
and
http://www.videomaker.com/videonews/2015/01/aja-cion-demo-day-coverage-science-of-the-beautiful
and
http://www.hdvideopro.com/blog/edit...nd-conducts-an-informative-hands-on-demo.html

As far as some of the comments contained earlier in this thread that I'm just now catching up with, I probably should offer some clarifications as needed.

- Providing built in "looks" is just a starting point that we offer with CION. You can completely disable these settings via some of our menu combinations if you think you want to craft something completely different than what has been provided. Or you could capture raw via the Thunderbolt output on the camera and start from that. With respect to "baking in a look" for the ProRes files, a 12-bit 4:4:4 high bit rate codec, even with a look applied, is just a starting point; you've got far more room to manipulate colors and craft your final look in post when compared to working with a highly compressed 8-bit codec that might have a look "baked in."

- I believe it was stated earlier in this thread, but if we offered a log mode, we'd be throwing data away. The camera sensor A/D operates at 12-bit, our signal processing is at 12-bit and our encoding is at 12-bit. Log modes on cameras are typically used to overcome the fact that the sensor A/D operates at a value higher than the encoding format, for example, if you had a 12-bit sensor A/D and an 8-bit codec, you'd want to map as much of the 12-bit information into the 8-bit "bucket" that you could.

- On CION, if you want a wider gamma to begin with, you can simply use the Expanded 1 gamma selection that is provided. (Conversely, you can use the linear Disabled gamma selection where no gamma is applied and create all of your "look" in post as well.) Detailed information about the gamma settings can be found not only in the product manual, but also in the AJA technical paper, found here:
https://www.aja.com/assets/support/files/2882/en/AJA_CION_Technical_Notes-v1.1.pdf

- As far as the "run and gun" comments about the camera: the camera was designed to be like a film camera, not an ENG camera. Simply because a camera offers an ergonomic configuration and the ability to be operated handheld doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to use it like an ENG camera (which is what I typically think of when you refer to "run and gun"; you might have a different opinion and that's fine).

- Built in ND filtration has several factors to be considered. On a camera with very high exposure index values, say higher than 800, you might need ND filtration to produce any sort of picture under very bright lighting conditions... sometimes even indoors with relatively controlled lighting, ND filtration might be desirable to achieve the desired depth of field, etc. With lower exposure index values, you might find that you don't even require ND filtration or very little ND filtration to produce the desired results. Since the camera was designed with the PL lens mount, it is somewhat assumed that you would consider using a mattebox and, thereby, external filtration. As mentioned earlier in this thread, many digital cinema cameras prior to the CION did not offer built-in ND filtration. Again, CION has more in common, from a design philosophy, with a film camera than an ENG camera. Finally, when a camera has built-in ND filtration you are "at the mercy" of the filters provided by the manufacturer (strength, quality, etc.). With external filtration, you can select precisely the filtration you feel is appropriate and you can avoid the pitfalls that can happen when built in ND filtration is combined with external ND filtration (should the built in ND filtration prove insufficient for some situations).

- As far as people using cameras, it is admittedly still early in the delivery process. We began shipping CION just before the holidays and the first week of Februrary is just now coming to a close.

- As far as a commitment to improving the product, today's firmware update is following quickly on the heels of initial feedback we received from our resellers, beta testers and end users. I expect us to continue working on and improving this product for some time to come. This has been the case for every product I have worked on at AJA and CION should be no exception.

- AJA uses a reseller channel for the sales of our products. Cameras are first shipped to resellers who then supply them to customers. Having said this, we do offer a beta test program, which is what Hugh Scully, who has posted here, has participated in. The beta test program is designed to put cameras into the hands of people to garner feedback about unreleased features, and therefore, that portion of the process is done under NDA/beta test agreement. Your overall opinion about the camera is yours to share, but the specifics of privileged information about unannounced features are to stay privileged. If you are interested in participating as a beta tester, you can always submit a request to AJA through a formal channel or email me directly. We can't improve the product without feedback and constructive criticism.

- Finally, it is true that our marketing effort is not like many of the other camera companies that you are more familiar with; this is our first camera and our marketing effort could certainly be improved upon, so we appreciate the constructive criticism. By the same token, we are trying be forthright about what the CION can and cannot do, what features we will consider and what cannot be accomplished due to technical limitations.

I will continue to do my best to make time to answer your questions here. You can also consider contacting AJA directly if you have additional questions.

Sincerely,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
if there is not benefit of log.. what is the benefit of AJA RAW ?? even better latitude, or nothing at all?? ( just higher framerates )

Thanks..
 
Hey, Jon, a chief engineer probably shouldn't be responsible for the marketing effort of even a small company to begin with.

A marketing person should be responsible for it!
 
Leteeci,
The raw output allows you the freedom to craft the image in post. The raw output does not have any gamma or color correction applied so those choices may be made in post as opposed to in camera. The pitfall of raw is that you must perform image manipulation in post and this may be too time consuming for some workflows.

I hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
 
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