AC130: Is the Ac-130 really that good for run 'n gun???

C

ChrisHarding

Well-known member
Hi Guys

I seem to be really coming up against so many obstacles with my 130's after switching from HMC82's .... I assume that everyone is not like me, of course and is delighted with the camera!!
Doing a quick comparison with my previous HMC82's these are my basic issues which might be applicable for some but not others...I might be a little biased cos most of my work is run 'n gun and no static camera filming a dance recital or doing an interview. Based on the fact that the camera is twice the price I really expected it to be twice as good which might also have been a mistake but essentially tese are my worries :
# Autofocus, especially with something with a dance recital is not at all good ...my 82's would hold focus for a 2 hour dance concert without any issues for 2 hours non-stop, the 130 lose focus in minutes
# Exposure in autoiris, because of the 1/3rd chips means constantly changing ND filters during the day.... both these issue are "correctable" in manual but why have a feature that doesn't work correctly..my 82's had auto ND's and auto shutter so you never need to re-expose going from shade to sun
# Almost impossible to use hand held without a rig!! I'd love to know how others are using the camera handheld on it's own...unless you are 20 years old with outstanding vision you are also stuck with a tiny EVF (outstanding resolution but still only less than 1/2") I was used to the 82 with a loupe over a 3.5" LCD the same as the Sony EX-3 so I had to devise a new loupe system over the 130 LCD
# Granted the lens is awesome but zoom out from 22X and it's out of focus...again I don't need 22X ..12X is plenty but at high zooms there is an awful amount of jello on the chips if you accidentally bump the camera ever so slightly!!
# Despite a huge diameter lens and 1/3rd chips it ain't so awesome at wedding receptions!! I still need to use an on-camera light for a decent image!!! When you go into a dimly lit venue 2.5 stop advantage doesn't help
# Auto audio levels just doesn't work correctly!! On loud DJ music it clips just the top half of the waveform off so your signal is compromised..to get decent audio you have to use manual.

I have to admit that is still one fantastic camera indeed!!! but I honestly think that it was never meant for run 'n gun work at all...I can see it being the best ever camera for controlled shoots like interviews and such but as people here have already said, you really do need to do everything in full manual for it to shine and I truly believe that in manual it's hard to beat.

What I would really like to know is who is using the 130 for run 'n gun and are you having the same issues as I am???? I'd love to solve all the issues I'm having

Chris
 
I have a small sony xr520 and it also doesn't have any separate selectable ND's, that one can also deal with going from dark inside to bright outside completely automatic, all small handicams do that but once you enter the semi-pro to pro camcorder world the fun is over but I think there is a reason for that :)
We have a human interest show on tv of a very Belgian know reporter (Jambers) and I have often seen that his cameraman needs to follow him from Sunny outside to inside, they never cut these sequences since the reporter is talking to the subject and you always see the cameraman selecting another ND when he enters the house and those are camera's that cost as much as a very nice car.
The only way you could bypass the nd's is like suggested by Barry is to use a variable nd filter attached to your lens but you still need to turn that filter manually to adjsut accordingly.

Now about loosing autofocus, now it happens to be that I have to tape a dance recital this afternoon, in that case I arrive one hour early, ask the light technician to flood the stage with white light, I place a chair in the middle of the stage and zoom with 3 camera's completely in on that chair, let the camera's focus automatically (which is no issue because there is so much light), then I switch to manual, lock the focus, zoom out and I"m good. Then I can zoom in and out all through the recital without any focus issue, even if they turn of the light. Most camera's shoud be able to hold focus but when they for instance start a show it's pitch black and then they turn on the light, any camera in autofocus will loose focus in teh beginning and adjust once there is available light, if you are in manual that's not an issue. I think with the autofocus hunting of the 130 that's something you need to consider to go manual whenever you can.

About audio levels, with my xh-a1 I am most of the time in automode with audio, but have a attentuator switch that lowers the gain with 12db which I need to apply in loud environments because otherwise it will clip severely, I also had a sony vx2100 in that past that never had this issue so it caught me by surprise when I got my canon :) I do use manual audio when I'm getting a live feed from sound mixer table (or however they call it) during business conferences where I need to get audio from the wireless microphones directly to my camera but for weddings I don't see the need as the camera does an ok job for ambient sound (I record wireless audio anyway)

About that small EVF, it seems panasonic has taken that from the dvx100b as well, that one was also very small and only good for framing purposes, here I can't understand why they, after so many years, would continue to build in such a small screen.

The reason why these type of camera's don't have that one push set and forget it mode is controll, in automode most camera's do an ok job for 90% of the time but will mess up completely the other 10%, in manual you can prevent that from happening, you can also get a better image if you are at the steeringwheel, I always select my nd's in a way that my f-stop is between 4 and 5.6 (if there is sufficient light) which results in the sharpest image, the further it will go above 5.6 the softer the image will get. I might also use the ND to keep my iris wide open to get that little bit more shallow dof, it's not much with these 1/3 chip camera's but it's something :)

I think you have gotten spoiled using your hmc81's :) just like I was when using my vx2100, it was only until I purchased a dvx100b years ago I started to learn to operate the camera manually and today I hate the fact that my xr520 is more difficult to control manually. It was only till I used the dvx I learned about the nd's and what they do to your image if used wrong, now it has become second nature looking at my f-stop and adjust my nd's accordingly. It does take away your attention about what is happening in realtime because I monitor every setting in my viewfinder or on the lcd to see what the camera is doing. the only thing i wish was much better on my canon was the focus aids, they just suck, I just cannot focus accurately on those tiny screens and have to rely on autofocus in weddings more then I want to, but at least it's very good. There I hoped the ac130 would have good aids to manually focus.
 
Chris, am I right in my assumption that you started your video life with 1/4" chip cameras? I think that might be giving you a different perspective to people coming from the other end.

Coming from the pro cameras that cost as much as an expensive car, something like these cameras seems incredible for the price. I've not yet been able to get my hands on one of these, but I expect (hope) that the manual iris and manual focus rings are as responsive as the mechanical equivalents on the pro video lenses. If not, then yes, it would be a problem. It's not hard with a bit of practice to run and gun in full manual. Not being shoulder mount might complicate operation a bit, but it should be simple to move your left hand between focus, iris and ND without thinking about it.

1/4" cameras have such a small range of usable apertures that there is not really any alternative other than a continuous variable ND. 3/4" cameras (that I'm used to) work much better in this respect as diffraction becomes a problem at a much smaller aperture (especially in old cameras that didn't have the resolution to start with). 1/3" cameras have the worst of both worlds. I expect a variable ND would be a lot harder to get working properly with the larger chip.

That said, based on the footage I've seen posted, I think the auto focus doesn't work as well as it should. I don't think Panasonic got the algorithm right for the sort of use that most people are needing AF for. Perhaps they should have allowed a couple of different algorithms, one for constantly moving shots and one for static shots. I guess they're caught between a rock and a hard place here. Whichever method they choose will not work for some people.
 
1) I never shoot dance recitals on auto focus. based on my distance from the subject and the fact they never leave the stage. I set it (make note of the setting) and forget it unless it seems soft. Only reason I see the need to adjust the focus is if the subject left the stage, alone and I want a closeup. I think the 130 lens is easier to work with than the 80/82.
2) Yeah all these 1/3 chips suck but this is how the manufactures save a few dollars. I avoid auto iris unless the type of location and the type of shoot really benefits from it. Plus, yes these ND filters are a pain. I need to constantly adjust it when a cloud covers the sun and then uncovers a sun. Sadly, it is that poorly designed. JVC's new camera (coming out early winter) has addressed this issue.
3) 130/160 is not a shoulder mount camera.. not much else I can say. Buy an adapter to turn it into one.
4) have not seen the jello effect on bumping the 130 w/22x. (60i) I might find this out the hard way, this fall.
5) again 1/3 chip camera will stink in low light even though manufactures say there is little difference between them and the 1/2. Sad how they can make a "Micro 4/3" chip in a still camera (which does video) for cheap ($300 without lens -- >dmc-gf3) and they can't put it into a video camera. Shame on you Panny!!!!! Time to bump everything up -- make all the 2/3 now 4/3 and all the 1/3 now 2/3 and keep the prices reasonable!!!!!!!!!!!! i'd sell everything I have to get the step up!
6)audio- I can understand why you set yours to auto. The hardware behind the audio is 'cheaper' than the old ENGs. I always see the difference when I jump from 130 to my older ENG camera.

I personally don't see 130 as much as a run 'n gun camera but it can easily be interpreted as one. Run and gun camera usually have lots of auto functions but the 130 is more designed for manual settings but looks like a very large run 'n gun camera. The auto functions exist due to user demands.
I own several shoulder ENG cameras and you won't find a switch called "full auto" on that body.
 
Thanks guys

Very useful information here!! I rarely use AF at weddings (normally just on the stedicam) but if it's a sunny day or reasonable light I stay manual keep the iris around F5.6 and just zone focus..it will have such a huge DOF at wide angle and around 10' from the couple it's going to be in focus anyway!!! Actually Mike I started off with Panasonic with a single Saticon tube!!! That's old !!! (1980's) With digital my first cam set was a DVC20 with 1/6th chips!!! I will honestly say that I am a little disappointed in the fact that Panasonic added the auto functions and they don't work!! It would have been better if they had just made the 130/160 manual cameras. The 1/3rd chips ARE better but not as good as claimed!! I have yet to shoot at a reception without a light..however I do need less light I guess. If I had come from a DVX thru the HMC150 range I probably would have less to say about ND's than I did as you get used to anything eventually....the ND operation doesn't really slow me down at all at weddings BUT I also do Property Shoots during the week for rental homes (condition room by room) and it is a pain indeed to have to switch in and out ND's as you come up to every single window...I think the answer there is maybe something like an HMC40???? Throw it into auto and go!!! However even at weddings, especially outdoor ones, your lighting can change enough to warrant an ND change and shooting solo with two cameras this can easily go un-noticed during the ceremony outdoors..I do need to leave the cam fairly un-attended!!
The auto audio on the 130 is actually worse than my HMC82's by a long way...auto audio clips the signal very badly so I use limiters on both channels and manually set it and it works very well....Again there seems to be a huge "I guess we had better put in auto guys" attitude from them when the camera works a whole lot better in manual ...Manual doesn't bother me at ALL!! I started as a photographer using Mamiya RB67 cameras which were totally manual!!!

Thanks again for all your input...I seem to be using the 130 correctly then..it actually took an awful amount of time to design/build rigs and loupes to overcome the hand held limitations but they are effective!!

Just for interest (as I don't own any decent DSLR's at all (two Lumix FZ50's only)) how do DSLR cameras handle video situations with constant light changes??? They seem to have an intelligent mode so is it purely a shutter/aperture combination like the old manual large format cameras???

Chris
 
ChrisHarding said:
how do DSLR cameras handle video situations with constant light changes???
Click to expand...

As far as Canon dslr concerns, you can put the iso in auto mode and it will adjust exposure very smoothly. I sometimes use it when I know light conditions will change in one continuous shot.
 
Very useful information.

I agree the manual ND filter changes are tedious. Two weeks ago I did a 2-day cultural event where there were approx 50 events, some out in the open, some lined up along a covered gallery. The events were on at different times so I had to frequently adjust going in/out and because the events went from 9 to 5 the outdoor settings had cloud some of the time and sun at other times.

I guess the biggest inconvenience was carrying around my 10 lb tripod and step-up stool, so, Monday, I shall start experimenting with the Gliders Grey shoulder mount rig that I ordered from India. It seems it's been delayed at customs.

Maybe they have never seen this time of gadget and are trying to figure out what it is.
 
It's really strange that the ND filters have to be used and are not just optional!! My buddy Chip in Wisconsin did a little test inside his house with his Lumix GF3 in IA mode and panned across indoor walls until he hit a sunlit open window..the little GF3 handles that perfectly and simply adjusts shutter and aperture and in fact it compensated nicely for white balance too...I also find that my 130's are not very good going inddor to outdoor either....just a tiny bit of daylight coming in the window throws the balance out for a good 10 seconds if you are moving! I guess that's the way the camera was designed to fit in with DVX and HMC150 users as they would be used to switching ND filters....I really don't mind changing ND's at all..it's just that they work very hard with me so I'm also concerned that one day the little knob will come off in my hand!! Then what do you do when the bride is walking towards you and you are holding your ND filter knob!!!

Thanks again guys..be patient Walter..your rig will arrive ...it's a tedious process going thru the mail process!!!

Chris
 
I find the manually set white balance tends to be a bit cool. I tried to set the WB for a dance recital and the image was very cool (blue). luckily it has the AB switch and I switched it to B and it was very close to accurate colors. -- otherwise I would of never gotten a good color balance. (since manual setting wasn't getting it right) I noticed other times it was cool also. Does the auto white balance lean toward the cool side or is it fairly accurate, indoors?
I do find the ND switch to be hard to turn and wonder the same thing. (if or when it will snap) If I was in full auto will I need to adjust the ND filter?
 
That's one of my issues too..My poor ND switch works hard!!! In autoiris the AC-130 only adjusts the iris (no shutter) and then screams for ND !! That to me is totally crazy!! The range is tiny so you might as well be in manual as you are mostly switching the ND's in and out even if a cloud hides the sun!!! I find my AWT is slow too....if you give it enough time, yes it's accurate eventually!! If I flip on the LED light on the camera and zoom into a white tablecloth..it takes quite a while for the 130 to correct things so more often than not my clips start off blue!!! You need to be patient in auto everything!!!
I took my el-cheapo Panasonic Lumix FZ50 (it's a point and shoot but gives a nice still image at 10.6 megapixels) and switched to video mode and shot around the house going from dark rooms to bright sliding glass doors and it not only kept exposure very consistent but the white balance was pretty darn good too.. my buddy chip in the USA did the same test with his GH1 and GF3 cameras shooting HD video with the same accuracy. If Panasonic still cameras can do it surely the AC-130 should do it way better????

The cameras certainly give a good result in the end but WHEW..they need so many workarounds to get there, I seriously wonder if they are a good choice for events where you work handheld or have to neglect the camera while shooting with a second unit.


Chris
 
The WB seems fine for me. I always try to manually WB the camera. One good feature is the fact on PRST we can actually dial in the proper WB under extreme or challenging lighting conditions.


ELN614 said:
I find the manually set white balance tends to be a bit cool. I tried to set the WB for a dance recital and the image was very cool (blue). luckily it has the AB switch and I switched it to B and it was very close to accurate colors. -- otherwise I would of never gotten a good color balance. (since manual setting wasn't getting it right) I noticed other times it was cool also. Does the auto white balance lean toward the cool side or is it fairly accurate, indoors?
I do find the ND switch to be hard to turn and wonder the same thing. (if or when it will snap) If I was in full auto will I need to adjust the ND filter?
Click to expand...
 
I saw another video on this site with a comparison between the hmc151 and a ac160 in autofocus just zooming in and out in a quite well lit room and the 151 did keep focus all the time but the 160 had some nasty hunting, actually now I have seen this, the auto focus function would be useless, I even read reports about users saying the one push focus function is also very slow and could result in a soft image, I also question if this new turbo focus will be of any good in a bit darker rooms, it might snap into focus (a feature the xh-a1 had from the start) but who can give the guarantee that it will do this accurately? If the autofocus is so unpredictable, why should you trust a turbo button that has to rely on that same autofocus mechanism that can't get it right at this moment? I at least would never use this camera in auto but manual all the time which is the way any camera in this class should be used, but I agree that in some circumstances you would like to lean on the camera's ability to make a focus judgement for you, especially in run and gun and also considering the form factor because it's not easy holding the camera in one hand and while filming making all your adjustments.
 
I have been doing some experimenting with my AC160, shooting mock-interviews, etc with it in full auto and have NOT been able thus far to duplicate the Auto Focus problems I had at the concert i shot last Friday. That's a giood thing. Now in an hour I shoot another theatrical production. I have the cam set for manual focus, with AF turned off in the menu so it cannot hunt. The plan is to see how that goes, using push auto as needed. Initial testing seems promising.

I do think that this cam was aimed more at the manual settings crowd, and that's ok with me. It will help me improve my shooting. I recall hearing at a Panasonic briefing at DVExpo in Pasadena I think, that it was designed by the AF100 team.
I am having my wife shoot with me, as back-up and she will be using an HMC150. This is a paid gig, so I am taking a few precautions here when introducing new gear into the mix.
 
Hi Firehawk

Don't get me wrong..the 130 is an awesome camera with stunning results!! It just takes an awful amount of work if you are shooting solo with two of them and have constantly changing light conditions. It's great as a manual only camera (that includes audio as well) and if you can use it manual then it's perfect for weddings especially if it's a single cam shoot. The sensitivity is really good compared to others too!! Shooting with two cams and needing the camera to be able to look after itself or if you have a less experienced 2nd shooter I still found that either the HMC40 or 80 worked well for me..however the 1/4" chips struggle in low light!!! Maybe look at something like a Lumix GH2 ..DSLR's are coming into the equation more and more now!! I seriously need a camera that I CAN use in manual BUT when the feathers fly I need to be able to grab a camera and flick the switch to full auto and know I will get (not the best) but really usable footage!!! During wedding ceremonies I can live with manual focus but I do need auto iris to work for me as I'm often not near the camera!!

What do others suggest for run 'n gun????

Chris
 
With respect to white balance, I generally have no issues with it being too cool, when manually adjusted. I typically set it using an old Kodak photo gray card, and all is roses.

With respect to a recommendation for run-and-gun events, etc.....if by that you mean which can do a decent job in full auto mode when situations require that, my vote--FOR NOW--goes to the HMC150. It just does so much so well.

Note that like the AC130/160, on the 150 you must set ND's when going from outdoors to indoors, but that really has not been an issue for me as I do not need top do that much. But it is fully capable of producing decent results in full auto, with pretty good non-drifting auto focus. It will however really perform better in manual, as will all these cams in this range.

I have been playing with the AC160 for a while now and have one paid job under its belt. Today's shoot was delayed til Friday. So I will be doing 4 concert/theatrical events with it this week, and will post my observations on them ASAP.

Based on what I have seen so far, it's gonna be a killer of a camera. So far--from last Friday night's shoot, second half where it had no focus issues--the low light scenes seemed sharper, and a bit more clear. Picture quality was very good. Plus I must say using the LPCM audio was really very nice, too.
 
Perhaps the new "a" version will resolve some problems and end up making these cameras a better choice?
I am not too excited about buying hmc150s considering how old they are and after reading some reviews.
 
I don't think the A upgrade will solve any auto focus issues but the turbo will make push to focus almost instant!!! Can't do better than that!!! The 130/160 LCD and EVF blows the HMC150 out of the water so purely based on the fact that the 150 has a really low-res LCD makes the 160 a way better camera!!! Plus the 160 is a lot better in low light too and I have had no issues with the CMOS chips either... From what I see, the camera is definately meant for full manual and just use auto now and again to assist shooting.

I am reluctant to change my 130's so what I'll more than likely do is get a 3rd camera to run in auto...I have a GH1 which does auto functions very well and stuck on a simple rig with a loupe that just might solve any issues with shooting auto. Our dance recitals happen later in the year so I'm also hoping the 130 will handle the theatre environment better than the 1/4" cameras I used last year!!!

Chris
 
firehawk said:
Perhaps the new "a" version will resolve some problems and end up making these cameras a better choice?
I am not too excited about buying hmc150s considering how old they are and after reading some reviews.
Click to expand...

I just used a AC160 for the first time this last weekend for a Wedding and it was great. I also own 2 HMC150's which I"ve used for the last year and a half and they too have been awesome. We are mostly run n gun throughout the day when its not Ceremony or the main Reception events (where we use manual) and the HMC's have been a breeze to work with. Auto focus was awesome and when it hunted a bit I threw it in manual and adjusted accordingly. We've also shot recitals with it in the past (on manual focus of course) and it went smooth as ever. I'll be upgrading to two AC160's for the added sharpness and 1080/60p and SDI output. I'll be selling my 2 HMC's in the coming weeks/months/whenever my wife says I can ;) ...but no doubt that the HMCs have been an unbelievable purchase for me that I've easily made 6 figures with in 1.5 years of use. I have no regrets and still highly recommend them for event use.

I do wish the AC160 was a bit better in Auto focus, but I'll accept that its a trade off for the longer lens and the LCD is way better and helps a lot when in manual focus. Hopefully the added "A" features will be as helpful as they sound. Panasonic knows what user's issues were with the AC160 and it seems they are at least attempting to address them. And it's pretty cool that anyone can "upgrade" their original AC160 to get all the "A" features unlike the DVX users back in the day.

If I could add two things to the AC160 that the HPX250 has it would be flash banding compensation (although it is not nearly as bad as most DSLR's flash banding issues) and the killer P.A.P 1 setting that the HPX250 has for low light. But it's a different camera and there are always trade-offs.
 
I have had my AC130 now for about a month and a half or so. Mainy done inside work and when I have run on auto focus I have not seen the audofocus issue that has been mentioned. When I am on auto I watch the focus number to see if it is searching.

When I have done some outside events, I do agree that having the ND filters is nice but for it to tell you to use it is a bit combersome. I have not had anopther other camera before with maually switchable ND's, but I have used a HMC40 and it dropps them in as it needs to.

Again on the inside events when I have had to use gain, I really have not seen it in the video much at all. Over all I have really like the camera. It is fairly good sized so I don't know if I would call it a grab and go cam but it is light.

Jeff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top