Is the 7D the better 5D for filmmakers?

[Barry_Green]

Usability has nothing to do with bitrates. It's ergonomics, it's things like autofocus in video mode and the layout of the buttons and menus, it's things like the articulated LCD, the flexible lens mount, the liveview screen that's always live, stuff like that.

 

[mtan]

well it also has to do with the usability of the footage taken

 

[Rory_B]

I have not seen the movie but watched the previews. 24p is not the issue with that movie. Michael Mann, as he does in his other movies, likes to drop the shutter speed down to 1/24 a second so as to squeeze more light into the camera. He actually likes the “video-like look.” Using a video camera in this way screams ‘video” because movie cameras can not do this. When one starts using a video camera outside the realms of a film camera (as in this case)….then I would expect it to scream “This is Video.” If you watch some of the other movies (not by Mann) that uses this same camera then it’s like night and day (no pun intended).

I totally agree. Just trying to make the point that thinking strictly shooting 24p will make your movie look like film isn't going to happen. Obviously most people here know that, but there's still a whole lot of people who think 24p is the only thing that makes a movie feel and look cinematic or film-like when it's not.

 

[Rory_B]

For me, having been a GH1 fan from the day it was out and an owner for quite a few months now, the thing attracting me to the 5D over the 7D are:

A) Getting the most coverage out of my 35mm Contax Zeiss lenses
B) A better codec than the GH1
C) Very nice stills
D) The 7D has a 1.6x crop factor, which to me is NOT an advantage IQ wise... and neither is it's lesser low light performance which will be closer to GH1 territory than film.

This is pretty much why I switched to the 5D. Especially since the zeiss/5D combo is so pleasing to the eye stills and video wise.

I was able to shoot in an absurdly dim lit room the other day at f4 and the iso around like 640 or 800 and still have a pristine image with manageable DOF. Being able to have as much control over DOF as I want is pretty nice.

Yes the GH1 has shallow DOF, any combo of the dlsr's will have shallow DOF. But The 5D has the most control over it.

People complain that the 5D has too shallow of a DOF, but I look at it as an advantage that it sucks in so much light that I can stop the lens down, bump the iso up and still shoot with available light if need be and have a stellar image.

I think the GH1 is way ahead in terms of the usability when filming in some areas like the LCD and being mirrorless. So everything has trade-offs

 

[commanderspike]

People complain that the 5D has too shallow of a DOF, but I look at it as an advantage that it sucks in so much light that I can stop the lens down, bump the iso up and still shoot with available light if need be and have a stellar image.

Yeah exactly. Even if you have to bump up the ISO to get a less shallow depth of field by setting the lens at F4 or something, your image will still be less noisy than the 7D at a lower ISO.

Plus you can save money on lenses. An F2.8 on a 5D at ISO 1600 will give you a similar DOF and low light performance (by that I mean noise, colour, etc.) as the 7D might give you at ISO 800 with an F1.8 lens.

At F2.8 the lens would be sharper too. I just can't think of any disadvantages to getting the 5D over the 7D right now, for my experimental week away from the GH1.

The Contax Zeiss 28mm F2.8 / 5D combo might just be the reason my GH1 ends up on eBay.

 

[Rory_B]

28 is a nice lens. I've got a 35 2.8, 50 1.4, then the 85 1.4. Oh the Zeiss addiction.

I've also got a SMC Takumar 6X7 105mm 2.4 that is pretty awesome too.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Even if you have to bump up the ISO to get a less shallow depth of field by setting the lens at F4 or something, your image will still be less noisy than the 7D at a lower ISO.

You know this how?

 

[ChipG]

Yes, how much time do you have with the 7D and can we see your stuff you shot with it? I don't like to judge without actual hands on tests and I rarely take things said on message boards as actual facts.

 

[Perry Wilson]

Yes

 

[commanderspike]

Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to pass it off as fact. I mean not to be exact but rather use an example to illustrate my point. It is a fact that the 7D has a smaller sensor. Several people who have used the 7D including Bloom, say the low light performance is not up there with the 5D.

Common sense dictates the theory is correct:

- FF sensor has shallower DOF then an APS-C sensor
- Current generation of FF sensor to current generation of APS-C has better low light performance by virtue of being bigger. The sensor technology itself in the 7D's APS-C CMOS is actually newer, but that doesn't quite compensate for the size difference.
- Lenses obviously have a shallower DOF at wider apertures

So as a rough guide (ignore the exact numbers I'm about to give):

IS0 1600 on the 5D may have as much noise as ISO 800 on the 7D
F2.8 on the 5D has a shallower DOF than F2.8 on the 7D therefore F4 DOF on 5D = F2.8 DOF on 7D (again, ignore rough figures they're only a guide).
So F2.8 at ISO 800 on a 7D is as bright and has similar DOF as F4 at ISO 1600 on the 5D.

To me that is one of the big advantages. You can close up the lens to manage DOF, use a higher ISO to compensate for the light, and end up with a sharper image with the same DOF and noise levels as the 7D would have at a faster aperture on a lower ISO.

Hope that makes sense.

Some slower lenses like the 24-105mm F4 L IS benefit more from the 5D than they do from the 7D. And that, is a damn nice lens to have to give up on when you move to the 7D with it's 1.6x crop factor and weaker high ISO performance (F4 remember is not very fast so you need to compensate with a higher ISO!!)

 

[ChipG]

The increased bit rate by what 30ish percent from a 5dii @ 30p to a 7d @ 24p might also give the 7d some good performance, two processors (5dii has one) might even put it a little closer to the 5dii for low light than people think, just dunno yet. Just don't know yet... I have seen false camera test done by the competition (or others) to deter buyers and pursude them to another model.

It almost sounds like what you need is a night vision camera?

 

[ydgmdlu]

Several people who have used the 7D including Bloom, say the low light performance is not up there with the 5D.

Nobody claimed that it was. And everybody already knows and has accepted this.

Current generation of FF sensor to current generation of APS-C has better low light performance by virtue of being bigger. The sensor technology itself in the 7D's APS-C CMOS is actually newer, but that doesn't quite compensate for the size difference.

Basically true, but could we get away from this idea that sensor size is a direct factor in low light performance? The pixel size is the primary factor; sensor size is coincidental.

F2.8 on the 5D has a shallower DOF than F2.8 on the 7D therefore F4 DOF on 5D = F2.8 DOF on 7D (again, ignore rough figures they're only a guide).

Is the difference in DOF one stop or two stops? Somebody should do a test to see... But then again, I seem to remember that people have done tests in the past... I've heard that it's two stops.

You can close up the lens to manage DOF, use a higher ISO to compensate for the light, and end up with a sharper image with the same DOF and noise levels as the 7D would have at a faster aperture on a lower ISO.

Not so true if the difference is two stops instead of one. If it's two stops, then the 7D would have lower noise, but the 5D would have a slightly sharper image. Whether the difference in sharpness is perceptible or not is unknown at this time.

Some slower lenses like the 24-105mm F4 L IS benefit more from the 5D than they do from the 7D. And that, is a damn nice lens to have to give up on when you move to the 7D with it's 1.6x crop factor and weaker high ISO performance (F4 remember is not very fast so you need to compensate with a higher ISO!!)

Again, no argument here. But I'd like to point out that this sort of undercuts your point, since slower lenses mean that you're resorting to wider apertures and thus decreased sharpness.

 

[ydgmdlu]

Here, I found the calculations for the DOF difference between the 5D and the GH1: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1651158&postcount=37

Just as I remembered, the difference is almost exactly two stops. The GH1's 2.0X crop sensor, in widescreen mode, is very close in size to the 7D's 1.6X crop sensor. So the difference in DOF between a lens on the 5D and a different lens on the 7D, that provide the same FOV, should be between a stop and a half and two stops.

 

[commanderspike]

Here, I found the calculations for the DOF difference between the 5D and the GH1: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1651158&postcount=37

Just as I remembered, the difference is almost exactly two stops. The GH1's 2.0X crop sensor, in widescreen mode, is very close in size to the 7D's 1.6X crop sensor. So the difference in DOF between a lens on the 5D and a different lens on the 7D, that provide the same FOV, should be between a stop and a half and two stops.

So to get the same DOF on the 5D as you would on the 7D you would have to stop the lens down 1 and a half stops.

That's one and a half stops more control over DOF, one and a half stops that the ISO needs to compensate for brightness and one and a half stops sharper image depending on the lens.

Low light performance:

5D Mark II Pixel density: 2.4 MP/cm²
7D: 5.4 MP/cm²
GH1: 5.0 MP/cm²

The 7D has the highest resolution and pixel density of any APS-C camera. It will be interesting to see how low light performance compares with the 5D and GH1.

 

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

... This was shot on 30p and not converted to 24p in post. http://vimeo.com/5787469 ...

Hi Gregory (if you're still "here"): That's an interesting video, which I'd seen before.

Apologies if you've already answered this question, but what shutter speed were the cams set at when you shot this video?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Columbo]

So now there's a stack of 7D footage out there, what are people's thoughts?

 

[Peter Reynolds]

I second that request.

 

[Kellar42]

I think someone needs to send Barry a 5D. Despite the frame rate limitations, there seems to be something happening on the 5D which was expected to be similar on the 7D but may not be coming in the way we thought. I'd like to know the science behind the differences.

 

[Barry_Green]

I think someone needs to send Barry a 5D. Despite the frame rate limitations, there seems to be something happening on the 5D which was expected to be similar on the 7D but may not be coming in the way we thought. I'd like to know the science behind the differences.

Kholi's got them both, he's shooting them side-by-side on the same project, and he says the footage is pretty much identical. What differences are you seeing or hearing about?

 

[Kellar42]

Kholi's got them both, he's shooting them side-by-side on the same project, and he says the footage is pretty much identical. What differences are you seeing or hearing about?

I don't know, maybe there have just been more opportunities to do great work on the 5D than we've had a chance to see on the 7, since no one has one. But even on Vimeo at full screen on a big HDTV, there are some 5D movies that have a certain something to them that feels sharp. As much as I love the GH1, even the best work on it has a slight fuzziness to it, and I'm seeing that same thing with most of the 7D stuff. Not bad...just the same look from some of the Crank 2 shots...where (I think) you could tell it was a consumer HD cam. Again, I'm not the expert on this, I just felt there was a large consensus that the 5D image was AMAZING...a hassle, but AMAZING. Before the DSLRS, there was a lot of discussion in some places about what you could get out of consumer HD, like the HV30, etc. But even at it's best it didn't seem like it could really compete with the big boys and the 5D did.

Haven't seen that from the 7D yet, but I'd trust the guy who's using both over my own eyes. Plus, I suppose if we saw the same charts for the 5D as you're doing for the seven, it might just re-iterate that res isn't sharpness and sharpness isn't everything...