Is Native 24p higher quality than 24p?

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Filmkid2003

Well-known member
I'm trying to decide whether I should use Native 24p or non-native 24p when doing the hack firmware update. Will shooting in Native 24p give me a higher quality video or is there no difference in quality between the two? What would be better in terms of producing a higher quality image...Native 24p with a lower bit rate or regular 24p with a higher bit rate?

In other words, would the "D" settings with no Native 24p produce a higher quality image? Or would the "C" settings with Native 24p produce a higher quality image?
 
60 doesn't divide by 24 neatly, does it? If native 24p is packaged in 60i container you will always have a certain loss of quality. In other words you currently are relying on algorithms of the deinterlacer to recreate the picture for you instead of having it stream natively - sometimes that might be spot on, sometimes it's not.

Barry (was it?) did a test awhile back comparing chroma in 24p footage vs 60i->24p and there was noticeably more color spill in 60i. Look for it.
 
The GOP of the 60i stream is 15. The GOP of the 24p stream is 12. So yes, in theory the native 24p *should* be higher quality. Haven't seen any testing proving this but to my eyes I believe I see a difference. You could also set your GOP to be 12 and not set native 24p(if it causes you trouble). This definitely increases bitrate and looks to increase quality.
 
Thanks, Svart. I noticed in another thread you and PapasArts and some others were trying to figure out the best bitrate settings WITH Native 24p checked that would not crash the camera. Did you guys find the best settings with Native 24p yet? I have a Patriot 16GB Class 10 SDHC card.
 
No, there is a bug with the Native 24p patch that causes strange I and P frame issues where there might be extremely high bitrate spikes and/or double I/P frames. This is not a bitrate setting issue as even stock bitrates will error out in certain circumstances.
 
Does that mean Native 24p will crash the camera and make it freeze up even if you lower the bit rate settings to a very low rate? So, in essence, we can't use Native 24p without crashing the camera?
 
I've been using 24pN since I installed the firmware with no problems. The answers are in the threads and search function. So no you can use 24pN. I have 16GB Class6 card, B settings, and Native checked.
 
Been using Native 24p since it's been out, Class 6 Extreme III card from SanDisk, C settings, no problem replaying footage in camera, no problems with the footage, so far i've shot a few hours worth of material with it, no problems.

Only gave me a write-speed error once, boosted the bitrate up to 50mb/s, and it gave me one write speed error during an entire days of shooting, I just turned off the camera and turned it back on and went ahead and shot the scene. So it "derailed" the shoot for all of 15 seconds.
 
I did not realize one could use the GOP setting with Native 24P unchecked. Is this something that is considered tested and stable?

I have always used the hack with the 24P patch unchecked as I use Cineform to get to 24P. Consequently, I have always left the GOP setting untouched. (Now, I'll certainly try out different GOP settings.)

Svart said:
Haven't seen any testing proving this but to my eyes I believe I see a difference. You could also set your GOP to be 12 and not set native 24p(if it causes you trouble). This definitely increases bitrate and looks to increase quality.
Click to expand...
 
I've been using 24p ever since 24p playback patch came out and never had any problems with it. Using AVCHD capped at 60Mbps with crappesque Class 6 A-DATA 16GB card. I've not actively looked for framerate spikes and P/I frame repeating though - I very well might have gotten a few of those.
 
Filmkid2003 said:
I'm trying to decide whether I should use Native 24p or non-native 24p when doing the hack firmware update. Will shooting in Native 24p give me a higher quality video or is there no difference in quality between the two? What would be better in terms of producing a higher quality image...Native 24p with a lower bit rate or regular 24p with a higher bit rate?

In other words, would the "D" settings with no Native 24p produce a higher quality image? Or would the "C" settings with Native 24p produce a higher quality image?
Click to expand...


Take a look at the 24PN Native vs 24 over 60i: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=214735
Third picture down is the 24PN stuff...

That should answer some of what you want to know....

Pappas
 
PappasArts said:
Take a look at the 24PN Native vs 24 over 60i: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=214735
Third picture down is the 24PN stuff...

That should answer some of what you want to know....

Pappas
Click to expand...


yep...that about says it:laugh:


I too have used the 24pn since it's release a few weeks back and have yet to see a problem. Much cleaner image all the way around- I'd even say some of the banding and FPN has minimized a bit too.

great tests btw pappas- I'll be jumping on the MJPEG train soon o give it a go- ghave to waut for a faster card though-- only have a 16GB Class4 sandisk right now--
 
Filmkid2003 said:
Does that mean Native 24p will crash the camera and make it freeze up even if you lower the bit rate settings to a very low rate? So, in essence, we can't use Native 24p without crashing the camera?
Click to expand...


Only if you don't shoot a detailed static scene. The camera will lock up at that time with a false card speed error.
 
Yeah, that's how I've been testing the native 24p issue. There is a nice green leafy tree behind my back porch so, I put the camera on a tripod, zoom in so the tree almost takes up the whole frame and see how long the camera will record before crashing. So far, with native 24p checked, I have to go as low as the "B" settings on ptools 3.37d for the camera to be able to handle it. Otherwise, any higher, and the camera freezes with a card write speed limitation error. This is using a Patriot 16GB Class 10 SDHC card I bought at Frys Electronics for $40. I'm now thinking about upgrading to a Sandisk Extreme 30MB/sec Class 10 card so I can up the bit rates and still shoot at native 24p without crashing. Seems Pappas and some others on here are getting great results with the Sandisk Extreme cards. By the way, if I leave native 24p unchecked, I can go as high as the "D" settings with no problems.
 
Been using the 'c' settings with 24p native checked to wonderful results on tripod or off with a class 6 16gb transcend card. Highest spike hit sofar 56mbits
 
I have never checked the bitrate on mine since I have noticed that the "c" settings with 24PN had no problems. I have shot some lowlight scenes with the color so "jus right". The card that I have is a 32GB Patriot class 10 and only had one problem that lasted a second. I have shot many hours already and playback works also.
 
anthonybsd said:
I've been using 24p ever since 24p playback patch came out and never had any problems with it. Using AVCHD capped at 60Mbps with crappesque Class 6 A-DATA 16GB card. I've not actively looked for framerate spikes and P/I frame repeating though - I very well might have gotten a few of those.
Click to expand...

Everyone says that they have been using this setup with no errors, myself included until last night.

Slap on the stock lens and shoot the pappas star chart for a minute. Even with a Panasonic Class 10 card, an error will arrive. I have tested it over and over... I can reproduce the error.
 
mojo43 said:
Everyone says that they have been using this setup with no errors, myself included until last night. Slap on the stock lens and shoot the pappas star chart for a minute. Even with a Panasonic Class 10 card, an error will arrive. I have tested it over and over... I can reproduce the error.
Click to expand...

Yep. Was working fine for me, too, until I tried shooting "static scenes of death". :happy:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2033148&postcount=245
 
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