Is it better for a protagonist to be motivated by action or dialogue?

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BitMaestro said:
And now you're going in circles again; tweaking plot instead of designing a character to fit the plot. At this point, my recommendation to you would be to start over because all of these issues should have been, and would be better, addressed during development; specifically, during the outline phase at the latest, but even earlier would be better. In any case, the script stage is much too late, which is why you're having the issues you're having now.



You didn't Google "MacGuffin", did you? Well, just to recap/clarify before I bow out of the thread, you expressed concern that the cop might not take the witness back to her place to pack a bag. So I asked "Why are you restricting their motivation for returning to her place to packing a bag?", as opposed to something else that would give them a stronger motivation to return to her place (i.e. a MacGuffin) like retrieving the stolen Death Star plans that are on her laptop, or the time-traveling DeLorean parked in her garage, or the last Infinity Stone that she hid in her jewelry box, or whatever else. I said nothing about placing the MacGuffin in a bag. (Although, putting a DeLorean in a bag won't make it any easier to carry around.)

And one last sidenote:



This also supports the "coincidence [that] makes it more difficult for your protag to get what s/he wants, it enhances the drama" thesis because, when someone gets into an elevator, their (immediate, but minor) want/goal is to get to another floor in the building. Getting stuck between floors works against that.
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Oh sorry, I don't mean to go in circles. This wasn't a problem before when I wrote the script, and I wrote it a certain way. It's just later after putting it away for a few weeks and looking at it with fresh eyes, something about this section of the plot seems dis-satisfactory or clunky. I can't put my finger on what it is, it's just something feels like it could be better about it. That is why I asked which scenario is better. But maybe it's all in my head and I should stick to the original writing?

And yes there is an important item she wants to pack in her bag, it's just she cannot tell the cop about that item, so she has to convince the cop to take her back there, to pack a bag, without telling him what the item is that she wants to bring along.
 
I'm a firm believer in the idea that knowing where a story ends up makes it much easier to plot it out. Each plot point should be supported in some way by what has come before. Likewise with character arcs: knowing the character's state at the end helps in figuring out his or her actions/dialog throughout. I can't remember if they've been mentioned in this thread, but I highly recommend Robert McKee's books Story and Dialogue.

I don't know where you, JimS2, but I would suggest looking into screenwriting classes and workshops. For example, the organization Chicago Filmmakers has beginner screenwriting classes and screenwriting workshops (for dealing with works in progress). These typically have around 6 students, with 8 weekly meetings of three hours each. I have found them to be very valuable. Face-to-face interaction (actual or virtual) has real benefits. You could look into such classes in your area, or I suppose you could even enroll in a Chicago Filmmakers online class even if you're not in the Chicago area. Take a look at chicagofilmmakers.org
 
A MacGuffin got loose from a neighbor’s house, we had to keep the kids inside until Bob McKee was able to coral it back in his pool house with his snipe hunting broom.
 
Oh okay thanks. I have taken one class so far, and can look into more. I also read books on it as well.

I already have my ending written out, it's just there are different ways of getting there, and not sure which way is the best. How does a writer pick therefore, when each way has their pros and cons?
 
JimS2 said:
Oh okay thanks. I have taken one class so far, and can look into more. I also read books on it as well.

I already have my ending written out, it's just there are different ways of getting there, and not sure which way is the best. How does a writer pick therefore, when each way has their pros and cons?
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Whatever way you think is the most interesting and most apt to engage an audience. You just have to write and see what comes out of it. Writing is work, there's no way getting around that.
 
Oh okay thanks. Well after thinking it over, I think the protagonist would be more motivated by dialogue. But if he is not motivated by an action sequence, would that make the action sequence feel unnecessary to the reader?
 
Ryan, have you noticed that when you talk about your technical problems you have responses from one cluster of members, then youngest a very different cluster who help with your script advice. Moving images is a huge subject and I can't ever help with script because I do t get it. I know a bad script, and I have even produced one myself which got used but now twenty years later I know it was terrible. You don't seem to have worked out the basic fact that it's very rare for an individual to have real skills and depth in everything. At best we are merely competent. The advice you are getting is really good, but it's obvious you simply don't understand it, or maybe you do, but reject it for some reason. Have you ever given your script to a specialist who could read it and comment on the whole. You seem to attack little bits of it, which will impact on the whole thing? I know very little about creative writing, but I do know how easy it is to destroy a product by tinkering.
 
Oh sorry, I don't mean for it come off that I am rejecting advice. It's just there are certain variables in the advice, that are not addressed, that I try to address after, and that's all I mean. I don't mean for it to come as rejecting or attacking the advice. It's just hard for me to apply the advice, without addressing certain variables in it.

As for the script, of course you want it to be good, but there are not a lot of scripts out there that you can buy on a microbudget, so I am wanting to produce and direct, what I feel is the one that speaks to me the most out of all of I have access to, if that's the best way.
 
That is the beauty of writing. it is just the cost of time. might as well make a good one before making it a film.
 
JimS2 said:
It's just there are certain variables in the advice, that are not addressed, that I try to address after, and that's all I mean. I don't mean for it to come as rejecting or attacking the advice. It's just hard for me to apply the advice, without addressing certain variables in it.
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This is exactly the issue, Ryan. There will always be variables. Every project is different, and the jobs of the producer and director are to address those variables to make the production work. How could anyone possibly give you advice that addresses every conceivable scenario (and a few ridiculous ones)? There’s no way to anticipate every variable, and that’s exactly what you’re trying to do. Again, you seem to want a comprehensive, paint-by-numbers, “if ____ then ____” solution to filmmaking, and that’s not how it works.

Hitting 15 pages of “okay, but what if ____” isn’t helping you at all. If it had done any good, you’d have something to show for it instead of sitting here some 5-10 years later still trying to figure it out. You have got to be able to make decisions on the fly. You will never make it producing or directing if you have to poll 100 people each time you hit a snag.

You have a choice here: either get off the Internet and actually pour yourself into some serious trial and error (the only way to learn to do this stuff), or find another path in life.
 
Oh okay thanks. So if there are no actual formula solutions to the problems, and the problems are always going to be different on a case by case basis, do filmmakers not know if something is going to work, and just hope for the best normally?
 
JimS2 said:
Oh okay thanks. So if there are no actual formula solutions to the problems, and the problems are always going to be different on a case by case basis, do filmmakers not know if something is going to work, and just hope for the best normally?
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Experience gives us a knowledge base from which to build the initial plan. Sometimes, unanticipated circumstances pop up and we have to shift gears at the last minute, and it happens in every department. We have to adjust for a location that suddenly became inaccessible. We have to move the camera. We have to choose a different lens. We have to adjust the lighting scheme. We have to change the blocking. We have to make a slight edit to the dialog. We have to figure out how to mount a lav in a difficult wardrobe design. But it’s that same experience base that gives us the tools to figure out creative solutions.

I’m going to say this one last time:

Alex H. said:
You have a choice here: either get off the Internet and actually pour yourself into some serious trial and error (the only way to learn to do this stuff), or find another path in life.
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Ryan. You will only get better if you learn from your mistakes.

The only way to make a mistake is stop asking others what to do, trust your own instincts, and actual try some thing.

Experience is always the best teacher, but to get experience, you have to stop asking and start doing.
 
Oh okay thanks. I guess I am just afraid of the budget going to waste of course if things turn out wrong. But I will try to follow my instincts as best I can and make the movie and hope for the best. If people will want to be part of the script of course. I was having trouble attracting people to it before, hence why I made changes. But I can try to shop it around more.
 
Today, I got asked to do something. I work for myself, have done for a very long time, so no work = no income. covid wiped out my income in March. So the project I got ask to devise, I have never ever done in my life. I know I can do it, but practically everything will be new, and a bit unknown. It will be done on location - and involve cameras, sound, lighting, singers and musicians and I'm organising it, doing some of the roles myself and probably going to be in it too. I have to finance it, manage it, find the participants and then make sure it happens. I have supreme confidence I can do this, despite it being totally new in terms of content. I don't yet know how the video will work - and how I will integrate a large modular screen with the shoot. As I understand it at the moment - there will be a live audience, an on-line video release and probably online and CD distribution. The audience will be probably 40+ so DVD may even resurrect itself for this one.

I have NO formula to fall back on, just a gut reaction of what elements will work/not work, be simple/complicated, and even the money side might break even/make lots of money.

I cannot imagine doing a Ryan - popping up on here and starting multiple 'how do I' topics. That's in my humble opinion the way to disaster. Over the years every time I have worked with committees it's been terrible. A forum is a huge committee - we all suggest things and sadly Ryan has zero discrimination. Even if we say all his ideas are great, do it - he cannot, as this is insufficient as it lacks all the protective safety nets, parachutes, get outs, multiple redundancy safety cutouts and protection he needs. Ryan cannot make decisions. In fact, this is the biggest problem. Every decision needs approval by others, and if he feels approval is shifting to disapproval, rather than tackle it, he puts it back on the back burner and starts again years later.

He burns out an identity, so creates a new one - four on forums I know about is just too much. The script will stagnate for another couple of years then he'll bring it back on another forum with another new name.

I'm looking forward to the mass of challenges my new job has created. I just worry that Ryan doesn't learn - and "Oh OK, Thanks" on every post drives me totally mad, because this is a standard response to positive, negative or frankly ANY post - almost like he doesn't take any comment seriously.
 
Oh when I say 'Oh okay thanks', I am just trying to be polite and thankful. I felt if I didn't say it then it may come off as if I wasn't thankful for the advice.
 
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