General Is it allowed to show brands in an indy? without permission

I remember when I was 12, I was watching these two Pandas having this fight, and I was watching for about 15 minutes before I realized it was the wrong WWF.

Ridiculous.......

Did you know that Mr. Perfect is dead? He is not that perfect anymore...
 
Its strange that you need to ask permission to show a logo, but Pizza Hut and Dominos have these ads that say "they suck, our pizzas are better" etc etc, using the other companies name and I think even logos etc.

Wasn't a RC Cola ad that shows a kid stepping over a pepsi and coke can to get an RC cola out of a vending machine?

OK i fount it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDpv5IrDzR0

OK screw everything. If they can do that, I can do whatever I want. They can sue me if they want, to me its a matter of freedom of expression and I'm ready to fight for it.
 
OK screw everything. If they can do that, I can do whatever I want. They can sue me if they want, to me its a matter of freedom of expression and I'm ready to fight for it.
Let us know how that works out.:Drogar-KnockedOut(D
 
OK screw everything. If they can do that, I can do whatever I want. They can sue me if they want, to me its a matter of freedom of expression and I'm ready to fight for it.

But is your lawyer ready to fight for it?

As has been said before, it's not for you to decide... Your main character could drink a can of Coke, turn to the camera and say "I only drink Coke and you should go out and buy Coke right now," but if Coke takes issue with any theme, idea or image presented in your piece, they have a very good case to go after you.

The whole thing with trademarks that makes them hazy is that they have to be defended. The police won't knock down your door and arrest you for putting a Coke logo in your movie, because you haven't explicitly misappropriated the trademark until Coke decides you have. But once they do, there's generally not much you can do about it.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm guessing the reason Pepsi goes ahead and uses Coke logos in their ads (for instance) is because they know if Coke sued, it would create a precedent that would prevent them from doing the same; it's almost a mutual understanding between brands that they can use each others' brands to show taste test results and things like that. Still, there are many cases where one brand feels another misrepresented their image and has indeed gone after them.

In the end, if you're planning a production and you want to show/feature a brand as a foreground element in a shot, just contact the company and see what they say. Many drink companies, like Red Bull and Vitamin Water, are very accommodating to small productions and might even send you a couple of cases of product, along with a release saying it's OK for you to show it. If your character walks down the street and looks into a store window, consider making it an independent/local store with an on-site owner you can talk to directly, who might be much more accommodating than the head office of a corporation.
 
Mike, you're being lazy. There are dozens of ways to film a street corner/store/etc. without showing ANYTHING! You just have to compose your shots, adjust angles, and take notice. If all else fails, FIND ANOTHER LOCATION or SHOOT SOMETHING ELSE!!! Why would you make the completely selfish decision to endanger your actors and crew by filming something you don't have the right to film, thus endangering your film and, thereby the reputation of your cast and crew and basically anybody associated with your movie and, if it gets really out of hand, any other films you have made or will make?

It's not a matter of fighting "The Man" or anything like that, it's the freaking LAW! If you go against copyright law for your film then you are a low down dirty thief and the real danger, again, is that if you get caught EVERYONE WILL KNOW IT FROM NOW ON! You have to think about how you are risking your film's business, whether it is a "no-budget" (ha-ha, yeah right, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, say no more) or a big budget indie, if anything should go wrong with any one film, it will tarnish your previous work and will hurt you when you try to move beyond the no-budget or low budget bracket because when you try to get financing, again whether for the first time or not, the financier will have to look into your previous work and everything about you before giving you a cent. I don't even need to tell you what would happen if they see a problem with something so small and trivial as copyright infringement but I will tell you what they would think, "INCOMPETENT".
 
Bull.

If I wanted to have a character deliver a monologue about how Coke is amazing and Pepsi is pureed horse manure then I am free to do that. We have a right to freedom of speech and people have a right to their opinion, especially fictional people. Companies can't sue movie reviewers for writing a bad review of their movies, even though this clearly harms the company and their brand. Freedom of press/speech, they cannot claim defamation for something so clearly marked as opinion, where nothing is being expressed as fact. Anything a fictional character says and does is taken the same way, because in a work of fiction it is possible and commonplace. To say and see and do things that are not facts. To publish an "investigative report" in a non-satirical settings on how Pepsi actually adds pureed horse dung to their product would be libel (or is it?!....jokes are not defamation :)).

That covers defamation, what about copyright? Well, saying Coke or Pepsi in your movie is not a copyright violation because Coke and Pepsi cannot copyright the way in which your mouth moves and vocal cords vibrate to create that sound, nor can they copyright the way in which it comes from speakers, or into a microphone. The copyrights they have are directly related to a brand of soda. Nobody can make a company named Coke or Pepsi, or sell products branded as such. No one can have a similar corporate logo, or sell merchandise branded with said logo without authorization.

However, I am free to use said logo in a film by the same precedent. There are many legal problems your film can run into but showing logos in the background or even in your characters hands, or even having them talk about products is not one of them. One example of a legal problem you could have is if you showed your character walking into a TGI Fridays and filmed it from inside their parking lot. They could later sue you because you filmed without authorization on their property....get a telephoto, film it from the street.

People insist on putting themselves in boxes for fear of being sued. Companies don't sue unless they can win (usually) and also won't sue unless there is something in it for them. They have to be able to prove they have been harmed in some way, which if you directly violate copyright they have been by definition. If it could go either way or if they probably haven't been then you're probably ok. And, even if your words harm them, the same expressing opinion rules apply. It's hard for them to say that they've been harmed by a Coke appearing in your film, and even if they have been harmed by a character's ranting tirade against coke, that doesn't make that illegal (plus personally I know I wouldn't change brands because a character in a film told me to :)). However, if you were to play a song from a record label or show a video or something in your film they can prove they were harmed because you directly violated the copyright and probably did harm them.

Then again they do need to get the stick out of their ass about some of this stuff. If I here a song in your movie that I love I am probably not going to go watch your movie everytime to listen for free. I will probably go "hey what's that song?" Go to iTunes, buy it, buy the rest of the bands stuff, buy a T-Shirt, some posters, and go to some concerts. But unfortunately they don't see it that way, and it's their right not to.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJn_jC4FNDo

10,000,000 views and still going strong.
Ben, I'm curious -- did you even watch that video? Can you please explain how it has any relevance to what we're discussing?

That video explains copyright law (although, obviously, from a biased agenda point of view). And it specifically spells out how they intended to get away with it -- by relying on the fair use provisions of the copyright law. And, it further spells out that fair use is limited to very specific exemptions: news reporting, instructional purposes, and -- I think they left out, but reviews/commentary are also applicable. And that you can use only a very limited piece of the work.

They are clearly hiding behind the fair use claim of "teaching", in that the material they used is intended to teach the nature of fair use as an exemption to the provisions of the copyright law.

So how does that apply to the subject at hand, in any way, shape, or form? If a daycare facility paints disney characters on their wall, that's not a copyright violation (well, it might be) but it's a trademark appropriation, and Disney can and will issue a cease and desist, and they have to -- if they don't, they run the risk of losing their trademark if they don't actively defend it. Is the daycare facility using those characters in a fair-use exemption to copyright law? Of course not. Can someone go out and make Disney wallpaper and sell it at Home Depot, without permission? Of course not. And the people who made that video would agree with me.

Furthermore, the video clearly stated that fair use is NOT A RIGHT. It is a legal defense. In other words, you do not have the right, under the law, to go taking someone else's property and using it for your own purposes! If you try, they can and very well may sue you to recover damages. You can claim "fair use" but it's up to a judge to decide whether that exemption applies to you or not.

How does any of this apply to what we're talking about? It doesn't, of course. We're talking about general entertainment, dramatic narrative, etc. Fair use is an exception only for the educator or journalist.

Mike -- is your film intended to be an educational video, or a piece of journalism? If not, then move along, there's nothing to see here.

Although I will say, Stanford's film here is quite eye-opening and a very bold work, which probably is escaping legal action by a third pillar of copyright law exception, which is parody. The very piece is, by its existence, a parody of Disney's position on copyright law. So it is a brilliant work, but like all exceptions to the rule, it has no relevance on the rule itself other than to point out its own existence as an exception. It doesn't grant anyone else an exception -- unless they wanted to make their own video explaining copyright law by using disney animation to do it, I guess.
 
Why open yourself to a lawsuit? "fighting the man" in this case means paying six figures to a lawyer whether you win or lose. That's not sticking to your guns, that's putting a lawyer's kid through college. Is that really worth it when you can just um not shoot copyrighted brands and logos like every other indie film and focus on oh I dunno telling a story?

Noah
 
I agree on everything that has been said about showing brands in your flic.
But I do remember sth about taking Photographs of let say the MOMA at night and selling it as a poster or sth.
It is about violation of the architect`s right since all you show in such a picture is his or design...
Anyways, this shouldn´t apply for movies, where a building might be in frame, but not the only aspect and sole purpose of the visual information given.

But seriously, how could your hero drinking a can of Soda violate the CocaColaCompanys copyright law??? You didn´t copy the product nor did you take the design and put it on sth else.
They sell soda for people to drink it. So film it.
If you film 10 people drinking a can of Coke and than instantly suffering a painfull death, they won´t sue you for copyright violations, but for a myriad of other things though... ;)
 
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Why take the risk though? If it's for Youtube- go for it- nobody cares. But if you ever plan to make money selling the finished movie, not being careful about brands will make your movie unsellable the same as say plastering wall to wall unlicensed songs in the soundtrack. And is freedom of speech really intended to protect our rights to show Coke labels in our movies? Personally I've got a lot more interesting things I care to say in movies than that...

Noah
 
Freedom of press/speech, they cannot claim defamation for something so clearly marked as opinion, where nothing is being expressed as fact.
Opinion is free, although slander, libel, and defamation of character are most definitely not free speech, even if they are your opinion! Shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is not protected free speech. Saying "I think Walther Schlossenberger is a lying thief" is not protected free speech, it's defamation -- unless, of course, you have documented evidence that Walther Schlossenberger is indeed a lying thief...

The key point I want to draw out is "where nothing is being expressed as fact." Meaning, I assume, that you're asserting that as long as someone is clear to show that what they're expressing is their opinion, and only an opinion, and not asserting it as fact, then they're free to say it. I would agree with that, but I would also point out the irony in what you say later:

...get a telephoto, film it from the street.
Try that with the Hollywood sign. Try that with the New York city skyline.

Just because it seems reasonable to us, does not make it fact. It certainly seems reasonable to me that you should be able to use a telephoto lens and film the "Hollywood" sign and use it in your film without permission from any entity, but the fact of the matter is: you cannot. It is a protected work of art, it is a registered trademark, and if you want to use it for any commercial purpose whatsoever, you have to get permission. Just because you can observe and film it from public land does not put it in the public domain! The Chrysler Building and the Empire State Building are trademarked. You need permission to use those trademarked images in your film, *regardless* of where you shot it from.

A city building is public property. Try filming in it without a permit and see what happens. Now, you should almost definitely be able to film the exterior of a city building without issue or permission, if you can see and film that building from your own private property or from property that you have permission to film from. I don't think any public building's image would be protected by trademark... the very idea seems preposterous, that a public entity (owned by all of us collectively) could somehow be "protected" from us... but you definitely need permission from the public agency before you can film in that building, or on public lands.

You have to be careful when making sweeping statements about what "is" or "isn't" legal. You're glossing over whole sections of the law, including the right of publicity and reasonable expectation of privacy.

People insist on putting themselves in boxes for fear of being sued.
I agree with this. There are some very draconian attitudes out there and the danger is quite overblown. But that doesn't mean the opposite is true and people should just go shooting willy-nilly and clamoring that the first amendment gives them the right to do whatever they want, either. Education, understanding of the law, and fighting for your rights are paramount. Security guards have no right to confiscate your private property, for example, and any security guard demanding you turn over your camera or tapes is acting illegally.

Companies don't sue unless they can win (usually)
I think this statement has little to no basis in fact. Companies can sue for many reasons, including intimidation, and they don't have to have any expectation of winning. If the company decides they want you to shut up, and they think you don't have enough money to defend yourself, they can file suit, and by default win if you can't appropriately defend. Regardless of what the law is. Is this "right"? Of course not, it's an abuse of the legal system, and bullying. But it does happen, so your statement should not be said as fact. You said "Companies don't sue unless they can win." That isn't true. A true statement would be "It would seem that a company shouldn't bother suing you unless they are certain they can win, but unfortunately there is no such provision in our legal system; companies (and individuals) can and will sue for many reasons, sometimes legitimate, sometimes not... and it's a huge hassle on the defendant."

and also won't sue unless there is something in it for them.
This is entirely true -- of course they won't sue someone unless there's something in it for them. But their desired outcome, and the law, don't necessarily always agree. In a perfect world they should, but we don't live in a perfect world, we live in this one, and we have to deal with things the way they are.

It's hard for them to say that they've been harmed by a Coke appearing in your film, and even if they have been harmed by a character's ranting tirade against coke, that doesn't make that illegal (plus personally I know I wouldn't change brands because a character in a film told me to :)).
This is entirely reasonable. And one could hope that the company in question would see it that way. But you're offering this as legal advice, and it isn't legally defensible. If someone decides that you using their copyrighted work (such as the artwork on that can of coke) is something that they're upset about, then you're in the wrong and they can and may come after you.

WILL they? Of course not. Could they? Of course, and the law (as I understand it) would be on their side.

This is a pitiful statement, but it has to be said: don't confuse "the law" with "common sense." Common sense should prevail, but when the law meets common sense, the law wins every time. Juries are specifically instructed in this country that they must base their decision on the law, not on their personal feelings.

However, if you were to play a song from a record label or show a video or something in your film they can prove they were harmed because you directly violated the copyright and probably did harm them.
You're oversimplifying it! You don't have to prove that someone "harmed" you, all you have to prove is that they broke the law. If you're on vacation, and I pick the locks on your house and stay there for a week without your permission, but before you get back I vacuum and clean up the place, even bring in a maid and have her clean it up better than I found it, maybe I even fix a leaking faucet that you had... have I "harmed" you? Could I argue that you're actually "better off" because of my actions? Sure, I could argue it, but the fact of the matter is I COMMITTED BREAKING AND ENTERING! The law was broken. I don't get to rewrite the law by cleaning up the house and fixing a faucet!

Then again they do need to get the stick out of their ass about some of this stuff. If I here a song in your movie that I love I am probably not going to go watch your movie everytime to listen for free. I will probably go "hey what's that song?" Go to iTunes, buy it, buy the rest of the bands stuff, buy a T-Shirt, some posters, and go to some concerts. But unfortunately they don't see it that way, and it's their right not to.
Agreed, from a common-sense perspective. But we are talking about the law, not common sense. People have a right to determine what happens to their property, and other people do not have a right to appropriate someone else's property without their permission.
 
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But I do remember sth about taking Photographs of let say the MOMA at night and selling it as a poster or sth.
The building's design is a protected trademark, so no, you can't go appropriating it. Same with the Chrysler building, the Empire State building, the Hollywood sign, etc.

Anyways, this shouldn´t apply for movies, where a building might be in frame, but not the only aspect and sole purpose of the visual information given.
Well, this is where we get to "incidental use". If something is purely incidental, there's usually not a problem. It's very difficult to film any street without seeing SOME car manufacturer's logo or other. Those logos are protected trademarks, but ... if the use is purely incidental, unavoidable, etc... then it's something that would typically be completely overlooked. If, however, you're making the logo a point of interest or attention, that's where you stray out of the "incidental" use and have to start looking at whether you're appropriating someone else's trademark/protected property for your own benefit.

But seriously, how could your hero drinking a can of Soda violate the CocaColaCompanys copyright law??? You didn´t copy the product nor did you take the design and put it on sth else.
It would only be a violation of copyright law if the expression of Coke's artwork (a copyrighted and/or trademarked protected work of art) was being appropriated in a non-incidental way. (this statement could be said to be stated as fact, but take it as opinion and the opinion of someone who's not a lawyer either!)

Do they care? Probably not. If it's incidental, people won't normally get their panties in a bunch about it. Obviously it depends on the usage, and on WHO is doing the use. As Ben said earlier, if there's something in it for the company, they're far more likely to pursue it. If Iron Man shows Stark drinking a Coke, you can better believe the Coca Cola company will be involved. Either they were paid for the usage of their trademarked product, or they paid for product placement, or (if neither of those two occurred) they'll be suing. But if Mr. Noname Indie does it, there's far, far, far less likelihood that any of those three factors would come into play at all.
 
I just want to reiterate that it is SO EASY to get through a film without showing anything. Look, lets use the Pepsi/Coke/etc. can drinking scene. Okay, I'm going to fix this, just watch:

- Drink from a cup.

There! You see, simple fix. Glasses work too and bottles just need custom sticky labels stuck to them. Then again, unless its a bar scene or restaurant scene, why do the characters have to be eating or drinking anyway? Even if they were it would be from glasses anyway so try not to be a copyright doofus when writing the script, think about these things beforehand, its easier than you think.

Street scenes are easy too. Just drop the idea of using the local street corner with all the marketing ads all over the place, go scouting locations and find a different street corner, the perfect one is just out there waiting to be filmed and it doesn't cost you anything except a little time and some gas.

Also, avoid comic book stores and grocery stores unless you can blur the backgrounds and not feature anything by accident. Cover bags up, adjust box angles, turn the spinning comic book rack sideways to obscure covers, do whatever you can to use the location and not the products they sell.
 
But I WANT to use some brands because they are part of the story. There is an underlining "anti consumerism" theme in my script........... (one of many themes) but I want to use them really just once or twice, and not explicitly... in a subtle way.

A girl looks at another girl walking with a GAP paper bag... that sort of thing.
 
Then make up brands. You make an anti-consumer movie that's not a documentary using actual real brands and one of two things will happen: 1- it will be stuck in obscurity forever because no distributor will touch it. 2- It will get you sued and you'll go into massive debt as you spend the next 4 years of your life in court.

Are either of those two things really your goal in life with this movie? I doubt it. Write a blog or a book about it if you really feel so strongly about the issue. And to be really frank about it- a vague message about anti-consumerism ain't exactly breaking news.

Noah
 
Exactly, if you ever want to sell the movie, any distributer is going to go through it with a fine-toothed comb and make sure you have a release for anything they think might be an issue. If there is, they're not gonna touch it, because they'd be taking on that liability at that point.

Fighting the man is all well and good, but if you want to be a part of the industry (and have any success in it), you have to accept the realities of how it works. It's a business endeavor as much as an artistic one, and if that's not how you want to focus your energy, find yourself a good producer who can take care of that so you can focus on the artistic side.

If you don't intend to sell it, go ahead and try it, but know that youtube pulls videos for copyright/trademark violations all the time, so even free avenues of distribution may be closed to you if you choose to go that route. (And that's a best-case scenario, assuming you don't get sued/blocked altogether). If you're portraying a major brand in a negative light, it likely won't matter how small/no-budget your movie is, companies won't allow their image to be presented to the public that way.

Like Noah said, make up fake brands that "spoof" the real ones. Or find a graphic design student who will make up some high-end fashion brands for you to use. They'll get a great portfolio piece, and you'll get premium-looking brands that are yours to abuse. Your viewers will get the idea (it's a fairly common/accepted practice at this point, perhaps losing some ground to paid product placements) and you don't have to worry about it.
 
As the grizzled old copyright lawyer whose seminars on media law I've attended is fond of saying (paraphrasing):

As a journalist or an artist your job is to be the duck from the joke.

A duck walks into a bar and asks, "got any grapes?" The bartender says no, and the duck leaves. The duck walks in the next day and says "got any grapes" and the bartender says no, and the duck leaves. The next day the duck walks in and asks "got any grapes?" and the bartender says: No...and if you come in and ask me that again I'll nail your beak to the bar! The duck comes in the next day and asks "got any nails?" The bartender says "no." The duck asks: "got any grapes?"

A lot of times you're the duck and people standing in the way of your film are the bartender. They may threaten you, but usually they don't have any nails.
 
Maybe so.

But for clarity's sake, let's spell out the difference between "what is legal" and "what you might be able to get away with", because those aren't the same thing.

It is illegal to exceed the speed limit. But people do it all the time. What are the consequences? Sometimes they get away with it. Sometimes they get caught. Sometimes they crash.

When they get caught, what are the consequences? Sometimes they get a warning. Sometimes they get a ticket.

What are the consequences if they get a ticket? Sometimes they get fined. Sometimes they get points on their record. Sometimes they get their drivers' license taken away. Sometimes their insurance rates skyrocket.

And sometimes they hire a lawyer who "fixes" the ticket to become "improper equipment" or something like that, and they pay a fine and the whole issue disappears.

But, in each and every one of these circumstances, it all began with someone doing something illegal. So the original question was "is it allowed to show brand names, without permission?" And the answer is: it depends, but probably not; if you think you might need permission, you probably do.

Unless, of course, the duck in this case is simply unconcerned with legality, in which case none of this would matter at all...
 
Maybe so.

But for clarity's sake, let's spell out the difference between "what is legal" and "what you might be able to get away with", because those aren't the same thing.

It is illegal to exceed the speed limit. But people do it all the time. What are the consequences? Sometimes they get away with it. Sometimes they get caught. Sometimes they crash.

When they get caught, what are the consequences? Sometimes they get a warning. Sometimes they get a ticket.

What are the consequences if they get a ticket? Sometimes they get fined. Sometimes they get points on their record. Sometimes they get their drivers' license taken away. Sometimes their insurance rates skyrocket.

And sometimes they hire a lawyer who "fixes" the ticket to become "improper equipment" or something like that, and they pay a fine and the whole issue disappears.

But, in each and every one of these circumstances, it all began with someone doing something illegal. So the original question was "is it allowed to show brand names, without permission?" And the answer is: it depends, but probably not; if you think you might need permission, you probably do.

Unless, of course, the duck in this case is simply unconcerned with legality, in which case none of this would matter at all...

Randomly my friend just got a ticket for a 70 in a 65 and the reason the officer gave was that the freeway was going through a turn and she could have killed a duck or something. Yes. A duck.
 
More energy spent on your film and less time in court. Learn the laws and how to work with them.
Remember the saying "I fought the law and the law won". That's usually the way it ends up.
 
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