Is 4:3 still good for most festivals these days?

Fender, the festivals do not care what your aspect ratio is. They will screw up your projection no matter how you shot it.
 
aweseome. well that is good news. i thought i was dead in the water and have to fish around for a descent lens. but i have to decide now what i flim it in and stick to it, then i have to make sure I know what im doing with the footage after. if i need a particular editing suite for that..I just dont want to shoot the whole thing and then find out I dont know how to edit it..but im sure i can learn that. especially with this site...

thanks all. Ill be on here tomorow problably.
 
AndrewGentle said:
'Squeeze' mode on the DVX, I understand, refers to the way the image is stored on the tape. If you use the letterbox mode, perfectly good areas of the recorded image are wasted by recording black bars. The 'squeeze' mode takes advantage of the full recording area by stretching the image to cover the entire DV frame. These non square pixels are automatically stretched back to their proper ratio whenever you view your footage in your editing program. What you see on the LCD monitor is also corrected.
Click to expand...

David Jimerson said:
No, squeeze (on the DVX) uses a 16:9 area of a 4:3 chip, discarding the top and bottom of the chip (so it simply ignores the same areas as would be black in letterbox mode). It's not very different from taking a 4:3 image in post, cropping it, and stretching it to widescreen -- EXCEPT that it's done in-camera before processing and compression, so it's going to be of better quality than a post crop/stretch.
Click to expand...

David, that's exactly what I was talking about. When I said 'full recording area', I was referring to the 720 x 480 recorded image on the tape. I am aware that a 16:9 portion of the sensor is used and the area which would be black is ignored. My point was that the full 720 x 480 image is used to record the picture information, as opposed to wasting some of it due to black bars.
 
Your DVX100a is not like the DVX100b. You will be able to shot in squeeze mode, but it will be displayed in your LCD as a stretched 4:3 image. But it will be displayed correctly in post using a 16:9 timeline.

With the DVX100b, stretched mode is displayed correctly in 16:9 in the LCD.
 
David Jimerson said:
It's true because the CCDs deliver an image much larger than 720x480, and with much more color information, and the crop stretch is made out of THAT -- and THEN it's compressed 5:1 with 4:1:1 color sampling, and reduced to a 720x480 image.

If you do it in post, you're taking the 720x480 image, already compressed 5:1 (as in, 5x less information than what the camera worked with), already with low-resolution 4:1:1 color, and then trying to stretch it.


NTSC widescreen is NOT 720x405. It's 720x480. If you take a 720x480 4:3 image and crop it down, in order to go to NTSC standards -- including for DVD, which you would of course want to do -- you have uprez the image. You have to take what you cropped down to 360 vertical lines and make 480 out of them. Obviously, this will mean you will not be able to achieve the same resolution as native widescreen.
Click to expand...

Ok, got it, yes if your delivering SD for a film fest then you are probably handing over a DVD, miniDV, or DVCAM tape. In those regards yes- 480 lines of vertical resolution have to be utilized-- if you are going for widescreen you will have 2 big black bars on the top and bottom of your screen.
I guess my question is--- Why couldn't you shoot 4:3, no squeeze, no crop, just plain ol' 4:3, (which is better resolution than squeeze) which is quoted in the bible o' DVX from the man himself Barry Green-
BTW-PICK THIS UP FENDER126
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/

....and then edit native 4:3 timeline and add your own black bar mask over the top and bottom of your image??

PROS-
More headroom to work with and reframe in post.
No pixel adulteration, (squeeze)
Best resolution possible for an SD signal
Widescreen look for DVD, MiniDV, or DVCAM delivery to festival or broadcast

CONS-
Have to render, render, render
Need to frame your shots with this in mind, easy to lose sight of in the field(easy fix- put tape on your lcd)
Doesn't look cool while shooting-no instant 'widescreen look' gratification in the field. (not really a con, but for newbies possibly hard to get past--I know it was for me :grin:).

On another note- there are the ONLINE fests like the infamous DVXuser fest in our very own play-yard here, in which a lot of times, (depending on fest requirements), the user can submit any dimensions they like: 4:3, 16:9, 2.35:1, etc, etc.

So, in this case I would do away with the 'black bars' all together and once again- shoot/edit in a 4:3 timeline then nest this into a timeline with custom dimensions to achieve that widescreen/16:9 look. So you are still using the 720 lines of resolution wide but you are making the height anything you want...in this case of 16:9, I believe it is either 404 or 405 lines high.
*NOTE- when you nest, the sequence will automatically 'fit' inside of the new dimensions- so you will see black bars on the left and right of the CANVAS. But that's b/c the nested sequence has been scaled down to 'fit' inside the new dimensions. Just open up the sequence in the VIEWER go to MOTION TAB and scale back up to 100%--your not uprezzing or stretching, your just putting the sequence back to it's original scale size of 100%

So: 16=720w and 9=405h.

You are not uprezzing, stretching or any of that other wonky-biz, your are just losing the top and bottom of your original sequence/footage. AGAIN- you need to account for this when shooting in the first place-so tape your LCD:D

I shot in squeeze for a long time on my DVX and loved it. I've since worked with the HVX- shooting/editing shows for broadcast. So I have had my nose to the monitor, scrutinizing HD material for a few years now. I've since gone back to some of my older DVX footage and compared the squeeze and 4:3 material...there IS a difference.
HOWEVER, that being said, I've recently seen some amazing DVX footage shot in squeeze and uprezzed to HD and it looks fantastic:thumbsup:. I'm still so thoroughly impressed with what this cam can do- I miss mine terribly:violin:.

Talk to Tommetass- he's got it dialed in-for sure!!

Check this out-
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=171460

All in all David, it seems obvious that a lot, if not all of this is a bit over the OP's head right now-- so per your suggestion shoot squeeze, it's not going to be a deal-breaker by any means- You'll get great images from this cam regardless.

Best of luck to you Fender126- There are tons of threads on this very subject and many, many more, happy reading:)

Cheers

Z
 
alignment1 said:
Ok, got it, yes if your delivering SD for a film fest then you are probably handing over a DVD, miniDV, or DVCAM tape. In those regards yes- 480 lines of vertical resolution have to be utilized-- if you are going for widescreen you will have 2 big black bars on the top and bottom of your screen.
I guess my question is--- Why couldn't you shoot 4:3, no squeeze, no crop, just plain ol' 4:3, (which is better resolution than squeeze) which is quoted in the bible o' DVX from the man himself Barry Green-
BTW-PICK THIS UP FENDER126
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/

....and then edit native 4:3 timeline and add your own black bar mask over the top and bottom of your image??

PROS-
More headroom to work with and reframe in post.
No pixel adulteration, (squeeze)
Best resolution possible for an SD signal
Widescreen look for DVD, MiniDV, or DVCAM delivery to festival or broadcast

CONS-
Have to render, render, render
Need to frame your shots with this in mind, easy to lose sight of in the field(easy fix- put tape on your lcd)
Doesn't look cool while shooting-no instant 'widescreen look' gratification in the field. (not really a con, but for newbies possibly hard to get past--I know it was for me :grin:).
Click to expand...

4:3 is higher-resolution (vertical resolution) than squeeze only when it's full-frame 4:3. If you try to make it widescreen in post in any respect -- whether by cropping/uprezzing, or just by doing a letterbox in post -- you lose that advantage. If you try to crop/uprez for DVD, etc., you'll have less resolution; if you simply add letterbox bars, the effective image area is the no better than the same resolution as squeeze inside a 4:3 frame (and is probably slightly less; the squeeze footage will definitely have more color information). The same is true if you want to crop to any other dimensions.

The only advantage shooting 4:3 might have for widescreen is, as you say, the ability to reframe -- but disciplined shooting and thorough preproduction should negate the need for it.

Now, on an original DVX which has no squeeze mode, I would definitely say to shoot 4:3 all the time and forget letterbox. But for the 100A and 100B, I'd say shoot squeeze.

(As for "pixel adulteration," there is no distortion. This is in no way a disadvantage.)
 
Do you guys mean to say I can shoot 4:3 with my DVX100a if I wanted to?...

Now that you mention it, seems I did do that once, many years back. :D

-Rodger
 
Sounds more and more that the squeeze method is a good way to go to get good widescreen look. I like the idea of discaplined shooting. I have always been good at doing things by feel/gut/eyeing it. So I should have no trouble getting instinctive with judging where the image would be cropped and film to that.

i will print these conversations out and study them. I still have so much to learn..which awesome frankly..
 
aligment: what a coincidence...the guy who sold me the camera had that book. but i also left it in the car....man..i cant wait to get that stuff back. thanks for the suggestion. I will definately read that.
 
Shoot on progressive with squeeze mode and ensure the V DETAIL FREQ is set to THIN, as this combination will result in the highest resolution.
 
exellent. I just tried progrssion mode out..man i love this camera.
I had the detail freq set to thick to compensate for what looked like a softening of the image..as nice as it is, I thought maybe its good to shaprpen it a bit..
but now I will put it on thin and try the squezze mode.

by the way, I put it on squeeze mode, and it does stretch the image upward, but am I right that someone told me that that is just how it looks in the lcd and it will fix itself when the footage is captured? do I need a special program other than final cut pro for any of this to work properly?

thanks..
 
Fender126 said:
exellent. I just tried progrssion mode out..man i love this camera.
I had the detail freq set to thick to compensate for what looked like a softening of the image..as nice as it is, I thought maybe its good to shaprpen it a bit..
but now I will put it on thin and try the squezze mode.

by the way, I put it on squeeze mode, and it does stretch the image upward, but am I right that someone told me that that is just how it looks in the lcd and it will fix itself when the footage is captured? do I need a special program other than final cut pro for any of this to work properly?

thanks..
Click to expand...


You can go in to Display in the menu, and change it from 4:3 to 16x9 to get the widescreen look on your LCD for proper viewing
 
vx1kOrnot said:
You can go in to Display in the menu, and change it from 4:3 to 16x9 to get the widescreen look on your LCD for proper viewing
Click to expand...

You can do that with a 100B, but not a 100A.

Fender126 said:
by the way, I put it on squeeze mode, and it does stretch the image upward, but am I right that someone told me that that is just how it looks in the lcd and it will fix itself when the footage is captured? do I need a special program other than final cut pro for any of this to work properly?
Click to expand...

All you have to do is work in a widescreen project and it will happen automatically.
 
david:
oh thats right, i remember reading about that.
any tips on adjusting your filming to compensate for what you see on the lcd?
what things should i be thinking...like for example..i have to know that horizontally there is more im capturing then what im seeing in the lcd..is that right?
 
Fender126 said:
...what things should i be thinking...like for example..i have to know that horizontally there is more im capturing then what im seeing in the lcd..is that right?
Click to expand...

No, all the info is there. That's why the horizontal info is "squeezed" into the 4:3 lcd. So you'll know what you're capturing. You should get Barry Green's DVX book. You are asking basic questions that are all answered in his book. Also, the search feature will help you a bunch. I joined this site a month ago when I got my 100a and between the book and the search page, I've learned a ton!
 
David Jimerson said:
4:3 is higher-resolution (vertical resolution) than squeeze only when it's full-frame 4:3. If you try to make it widescreen in post in any respect -- whether by cropping/uprezzing, or just by doing a letterbox in post -- you lose that advantage. If you try to crop/uprez for DVD, etc., you'll have less resolution; if you simply add letterbox bars, the effective image area is the no better than the same resolution as squeeze inside a 4:3 frame (and is probably slightly less; the squeeze footage will definitely have more color information). The same is true if you want to crop to any other dimensions.

The only advantage shooting 4:3 might have for widescreen is, as you say, the ability to reframe -- but disciplined shooting and thorough preproduction should negate the need for it.

Now, on an original DVX which has no squeeze mode, I would definitely say to shoot 4:3 all the time and forget letterbox. But for the 100A and 100B, I'd say shoot squeeze.

(As for "pixel adulteration," there is no distortion. This is in no way a disadvantage.)
Click to expand...

Gotcha
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top