IR Problem Costs Thousands
- Thread starter asafb
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Bassman2003
Veteran
Dealing with a problem and moving on is not condoning a behavior. Do not put words in my mouth and drag me into your problem.
I almost did not buy this camera until I saw the image and saw how much the filter does solve the problem.
Not happy with brown blacks but I have been around this industry enough to know that nothing comes for free. And if I can put a $250 filter on a $5,500 full raster camera (after rebate) and the image is correct, then it is still a good deal.
The HPX-500 costs a lot more overall and it needs the filter as well, but it is out of my control.
I have been in your position before, but the cold hard reality is that even when your rent your are responsible for the end product. That is why I don't like to rent expensive equipment for important jobs unless I have to.
asafb...
Some of us might have relationships with Sony which we would rather not compromise. So don't be surprised if all of us don't jump into your scrum against Sony.
The reddish black problem is there under some circumstances. Options exist to solve most of the issue. Sometimes it's important to get good accurate blacks, sometimes not. If you don't own a Sony camera then you don't really have a gripe. Because you can rent something else.
Some of us have weighed the options and made a choice. And we'll deal with it in whatever way possible. I thought the EX1 was going to have a pre-record buffer and could really use one with the type of shooting I do. But you don't see me whining about it when it hasn't come to be.
For whatever reason Sony wasn't able to prevent this reddish-black problem from happening. Sony knows this and they're not stupid. For whatever reason they could not come up with a workable solution and released the camera to the marketplace with that particular response characteristic. Someone had to make a judgment call and so it goes.
As for lawsuits, there are way too many of them already. How many of us have had problems on jobs that were our fault? Hits in audio tracks? Shots that weren't in focus? Action missed because we THOUGHT the camera was running? Tape failures? Lost footage? Do we deserve to be sued because we made a mistake, or because material was less than perfect due to circumstances beyond our control?
A client can make the argument that we should have backup equipment on hand (at least two cameras and two of everything). And in the case of the reddish blacks, the client can say the producer should have known the problem, even if the camera is rented. Professionals are allowed no excuses, right?
It can go on and on and on.
Join in on a class action suit? No way. Not me.
If you're going to persecute Sony, then you have to go after all the other companies that produced cameras which exhibit this same problem. No exceptions. But by your own admission you don't even own a Sony EX1. You didn't vote in this particular marketplace. You don't have a right to complain. If you invested several thousand bucks, then maybe some of us might feel differently about your complaints. You shot one job without full understanding of the equipment you rented. You made a mistake. Consider it an expensive lesson learned.
Some of us might have relationships with Sony which we would rather not compromise. So don't be surprised if all of us don't jump into your scrum against Sony.
The reddish black problem is there under some circumstances. Options exist to solve most of the issue. Sometimes it's important to get good accurate blacks, sometimes not. If you don't own a Sony camera then you don't really have a gripe. Because you can rent something else.
Some of us have weighed the options and made a choice. And we'll deal with it in whatever way possible. I thought the EX1 was going to have a pre-record buffer and could really use one with the type of shooting I do. But you don't see me whining about it when it hasn't come to be.
For whatever reason Sony wasn't able to prevent this reddish-black problem from happening. Sony knows this and they're not stupid. For whatever reason they could not come up with a workable solution and released the camera to the marketplace with that particular response characteristic. Someone had to make a judgment call and so it goes.
As for lawsuits, there are way too many of them already. How many of us have had problems on jobs that were our fault? Hits in audio tracks? Shots that weren't in focus? Action missed because we THOUGHT the camera was running? Tape failures? Lost footage? Do we deserve to be sued because we made a mistake, or because material was less than perfect due to circumstances beyond our control?
A client can make the argument that we should have backup equipment on hand (at least two cameras and two of everything). And in the case of the reddish blacks, the client can say the producer should have known the problem, even if the camera is rented. Professionals are allowed no excuses, right?
It can go on and on and on.
Join in on a class action suit? No way. Not me.
If you're going to persecute Sony, then you have to go after all the other companies that produced cameras which exhibit this same problem. No exceptions. But by your own admission you don't even own a Sony EX1. You didn't vote in this particular marketplace. You don't have a right to complain. If you invested several thousand bucks, then maybe some of us might feel differently about your complaints. You shot one job without full understanding of the equipment you rented. You made a mistake. Consider it an expensive lesson learned.
GuyB
Well-known member
Not to say there aren't law suites in Australia, but in general we are not the letigious society that appears more prevalent in the US so I am not about to go out trying to sue Sony either. I do believe though that we need to be vocal about our dissaproval of this as an acceptable condition and show in a very loud way that it needs to be addressed. Preferably in a modification to our current models (such as the battery drain issue) but AT LEAST by ensuring that future models over come this limitation. JVC had to deal with their own issue with the split screen defect and due to the vocality of the forums of users complaining they have essentially illiminated the problem. The squeeky wheel gets oiled.
While it may be fine to say that we can just throw on a filter, what happens to all those shooters who are trying to use a wide angle attachment, or a range of lens on the EX3 including Alpha lens? It is a fix for some, but by no means all. It may suite me and I will end up with a 486 if nothing else comes out sooner rather than later, but if a PDW350 level version of the EX comes out there is no way I would spend a cent on it if it still has this contamination problem.
Hopefully Sony accepted this problem for this generation of product only, and it isn't going to be an ongoing issue on all cameras into the future. Maybe when they update the EX to use EXMORE-R technology they can improve its performance in the face of IR but if they don't know we care about it then they won't make the effort either....
While it may be fine to say that we can just throw on a filter, what happens to all those shooters who are trying to use a wide angle attachment, or a range of lens on the EX3 including Alpha lens? It is a fix for some, but by no means all. It may suite me and I will end up with a 486 if nothing else comes out sooner rather than later, but if a PDW350 level version of the EX comes out there is no way I would spend a cent on it if it still has this contamination problem.
Hopefully Sony accepted this problem for this generation of product only, and it isn't going to be an ongoing issue on all cameras into the future. Maybe when they update the EX to use EXMORE-R technology they can improve its performance in the face of IR but if they don't know we care about it then they won't make the effort either....
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this is great info, thanks.
i did not know about the IR issue before today, and so am very glad to read this possible quick workaround. cheers!
i have recently been researching a good choice for a 3-camera filming rig, for a kids show.
my advice will or will not be listened to by the producers, depends on what the main DP's have to say, of course.
being a 'progressive and arty' film maker, i tend towards the newer technologies, filming to card, things like that.. and so my first recommendation was for EX1, EX3, and a Red One.
however, after reading and seeing the IR tests.. well.. im not so sure. because the Digibeta cameras seemingly do not have this IR issue at all, whilst the EX and Red cameras do.
so, there are good reasons for traditional approaches.. i guess.
always good to be aware of what is going on, anyways..
i already own an EX1, so the main points of help i have learned from this thread are:
be aware that Tungsten lights are putting out a huge amount of IR.. and that outside, IR reflects off foliage..
a 486 filter can help (green edges for wide angle lens tho)
using ND filters increases the IR "issue" because visible light is prevented yet the IR light goes through ND filters.
i have no argument with anything that anyone has said..
im just trying to get a good appraisal of the situation, so i know how to work best with my EX1, and also how to make the most helpful suggestions to a major production company about a new show.
my advice will or will not be listened to by the producers, depends on what the main DP's have to say, of course.
being a 'progressive and arty' film maker, i tend towards the newer technologies, filming to card, things like that.. and so my first recommendation was for EX1, EX3, and a Red One.
however, after reading and seeing the IR tests.. well.. im not so sure. because the Digibeta cameras seemingly do not have this IR issue at all, whilst the EX and Red cameras do.
so, there are good reasons for traditional approaches.. i guess.
always good to be aware of what is going on, anyways..
i already own an EX1, so the main points of help i have learned from this thread are:
be aware that Tungsten lights are putting out a huge amount of IR.. and that outside, IR reflects off foliage..
a 486 filter can help (green edges for wide angle lens tho)
using ND filters increases the IR "issue" because visible light is prevented yet the IR light goes through ND filters.
i have no argument with anything that anyone has said..
im just trying to get a good appraisal of the situation, so i know how to work best with my EX1, and also how to make the most helpful suggestions to a major production company about a new show.
"Sometimes it's important to get good accurate blacks, sometimes not" -DCSensui.
Wow - can yo utell me when it's not? What a shameful comment you can make - hey, maybe all blacks should be orange! And how about all the people here who have read these posts and are glad they were informed BEFORE getting the camera --- this has nothing to do with me owning the camera or not, people, wake up and smell the coffee!
I know very well that doing a CAL is a complete waste of time. I told you before, I want the manufacturers to release this information to the public and tell us what to do to SOLVE THE PROBLEM, that's all. Like I said, I really feel that manufacturers should inform their purchasing public of these issues and how to avoid it.
"Sometimes it's important to get good accurate blacks, sometimes not. " -- favorite quote
Wow - can yo utell me when it's not? What a shameful comment you can make - hey, maybe all blacks should be orange!
And how about all the people here who have read these posts and are glad they were informed BEFORE getting the camera --- this has nothing to do with me owning the camera or not, people, wake up and smell the coffee!I know very well that doing a CAL is a complete waste of time. I told you before, I want the manufacturers to release this information to the public and tell us what to do to SOLVE THE PROBLEM, that's all. Like I said, I really feel that manufacturers should inform their purchasing public of these issues and how to avoid it.
"Sometimes it's important to get good accurate blacks, sometimes not. " -- favorite quote
And GuyB i'm 100% on your side - I'm disappointed at all these other ppl who side with Sony and OTHER manufcatureres with this known issue; aren't you? It's like they're saying "hey it's okay Sony! Don't worry about it! "
Do you think Steven Spielberg would be okay with having his actor's tuxedos ugly brown? Have you seen a motion picture released like that? Rest my case.
"Do you think Steven Spielberg would be okay with having his actor's tuxedos ugly brown? Have you seen a motion picture released like that? Rest my case.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I don't think Mr. Spielberg would shoot a movie with equipment he had no prior experience with either.
You are embarrasing yourself now by taking people's comments out of context.
Go file your suit and be done with it then...
You are embarrasing yourself now by taking people's comments out of context.
Go file your suit and be done with it then...
When was the last time you saw someone wearing a tuxedo on a fishing boat?
Jason Ramsey
Admin
ok... i think that's enough of this thread...
Later,
Jason
Later,
Jason
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