Interview with Canon's Larry Thorpe on C300 - Explains a lot

[Nuno Dias]

haha nuno, sorry, but your comparisons are ridiculous. you can make any camera look fantastic or crappy with these methods. stop that.
http://vimeo.com/28581316 . terrible highlights in this alexa video too. doesn't mean anything.
peter jackson, lars von trier, david fincher, ridley scott, brian singer, baz luhrmann, soderbergh, ....., can choose any camera they want to shoot, and they took a red, it must not be as crappy as you say i guess.

You've obviously missed the all point. Its not about getting beautiful images as examples on beauty! Its about showing how the Red's sensor reacts to highlights. They clip! Clipping is something you see in cheap 80s video cameras, not something I would expect to see on a Red!

By the way, would you care to point out on a frame grab where exactly the highlights clip on that seriously silly commercial you linked?

Two final examples:

These two next frames are from two spots I shot. One on the Alexa, the other on the Red. For these examples I tried to get shots that were back lit (as I almost always light anyway), so you can see for yourself that the Red clips the highlight, and I remember that we had to try and hide that clipping as much as we could on the DaVinci Lustre. Where as on the Alexa, we didn't have to deal with one single clipping!

ALEXA
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RED MX

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[ArthurD]

@Nuno Dias..... Isn't that Porsche.

Anyways for a good comparision, if you guys have not watched the series before,the great camera shoot 2011 places many cameras side by side. The Alexa shines. The RED is no sloutch either.

http://www.zacuto.com/the-great-camera-shootout-2011/episode-one

Yes, at 16mn35, it shows that the difference is not that extreme.
same for http://vimeo.com/20066150 . the skin on red is not that different as a lot of people on these forums are claiming.

 

[ArthurD]

By the way, would you care to point out on a frame grab where exactly the highlights clip on that seriously silly commercial you linked?

haha, you're kidding right? you're not really objective it seems.
anyway watch the highlight test from zacuto at 16mn35, the highlights under the table and on the glasses are even better with the red. but i'm not saying the mx is better. let's just stay a bit objective and less extreme. these 2 cameras share the market, they are equally good, just a different look, not by far.

 

[TimurCivan]

Who is the actress?

She's a french model, working at the angeniuex booth. Her last name is cariel. I forget her first name.

 

[TimurCivan]

You've obviously missed the all point. Its not about getting beautiful images as examples on beauty! Its about showing how the Red's sensor reacts to highlights. They clip! Clipping is something you see in cheap 80s video cameras, not something I would expect to see on a Red!

By the way, would you care to point out on a frame grab where exactly the highlights clip on that seriously silly commercial you linked?

Two final examples:

These two next frames are from two spots I shot. One on the Alexa, the other on the Red. For these examples I tried to get shots that were back lit (as I almost always light anyway), so you can see for yourself that the Red clips the highlight, and I remember that we had to try and hide that clipping as much as we could on the DaVinci Lustre. Where as on the Alexa, we didn't have to deal with one single clipping!

ALEXA
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View attachment 43235


RED MX
View attachment 43236
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Everything will clip. So will an alexa, f3, Epic, 35mm, etc... its about controlling your highlights, and adding fill.

Every modern digital cine camera is capable of amazing images. I prefer the tone of the alexa and F3 personally.

That said, I have a RED scarlet on order. Some jobs need 4K..... different hammer for different nails.

 

[Searcher]

That said, I have a RED scarlet on order.

I know you have a F3 already and great glass.

Do you need a new best friend?

 

[Nuno Dias]

Everything will clip. So will an alexa, f3, Epic, 35mm, etc... its about controlling your highlights, and adding fill.

Well, that's obviously not the case, is it? How will 35mm clip? Its not a digital image, clipping is a specific digital response to extreme white values. Also, as I have tried to show, I didn't see any clipping on either the Alexa or the C300! I even asked to post any Alexa clipping frames, but there are none posted.

The Epic is a very good piece of technology and an excellent digital camera, but it has (in my view) a major, and basic flaw. And I showed WITH PICTURES what that flaw is. And no, in this case, its not about controlling your highlights, because sometimes DPs want the highlights to go all the way up, and if they clip, it will look bad! Meaning you will have an electronic response to white, rather than seeing the white scale transitioning to pure white.

I haven't even seen a single frame from the Scarlet. And it being a 'younger' sister from the Epic, I believe this flaw will also be present. Now, it might not be an issue for you, and that's fine, but if you care about image quality, then the Scarlet, for its price, its not the best option. So far, the best -30K camera is without a shadow of a doubt, the C300. Because, what really matters its the image, and how the sensor will give you the full gamut without breaking down into electronic 'feedback'.

Anyway, I made my case, and tried to do it the best and most honest way I could, with pictures. The final conclusion for me is, there is no better camera than the C300 at its price point. In my view it even performs better than the higher priced Epic.

 

[maarek]

Anyway, I made my case, and tried to do it the best and most honest way I could, with pictures. The final conclusion for me is, there is no better camera than the C300 at its price point. In my view it even performs better than the higher priced Epic.

All the cameras clip. Alexa will clip too, C300 will clip earliest of these cameras. Highlight handling on the C300 will probably be very close to XF300. You expose for your highlights and learn the camera you use. Obviously something is going wrong with your shootings. Epic does handle shadows slightly better than the Alexa which handles highlights slightly better. Epic also has incredible highlight handling when used with hdrx.

 

[Nuno Dias]

But if you can't produce good images with either then you seriously need to reconsider your skills.

Listen, don't need to get smart ass. If the Alexa clips or the C300, show it! Don't just try to fuel an argument with basis on nothing. Show me a clipped frame from the C300? I showed it with pictures, the exact same lighting conditions, and there was not clipping. Where as on the Epic, it was all over the place! Now, if you don't know what clipping is, or even if you never shot anything of real commercial value, then I can't keep this up with you.

But if you're that good, let's see your work, show us your skills man!

 

[Melvin Harris]

Don't just try to fuel an argument with basis on nothing. Show me a clipped frame from the C300?

Dude... doesn't the camera come out in January or something?

 

[Melvin Harris]

Now, if you don't know what clipping is, or even if you never shot anything of real commercial value, then I can't keep this up with you.

But if you're that good, let's see your work, show us your skills man!

Dude, really?

Please tell me witch other examples I should get and I will. I'm not on a mission to anything, just trying to understand things.

My recollection is that every time I see a film shot on Red, there is something about it that looks odd, the highlights are always a problem and the overall look is not 'textured' and is far too compressed and cold. I know this is personal taste, but I also know that there are serious issues with the Red's sensor.

As this is my job, how I earn my living, I need to know how much I can rely on specs or, if on the other hand I need to understand and study more about sensor design and its architecture, because as of now, it sure seems like specs are not what its all about...

The Alexa has surprisingly simple specs but it delivers an almost perfect picture, to my eye anyway, it goes along way from the Red, which has amazingly powerful specs...

So, again, I wonder if Canon is not one step ahead of us all... by building a powerful sensor from scratch, and not giving in to the pissing contest of tech specs... because, from what I saw so far, it really is that good.

I'm with you here...
Get back to here...

 

[maarek]

Listen, don't need to get smart ass. If the Alexa clips or the C300, show it! Don't just try to fuel an argument with basis on nothing. Show me a clipped frame from the C300? I showed it with pictures, the exact same lighting conditions, and there was not clipping.

There are clipped highlights in that Alexa commercial that ArthurD posted. Terrible highlights. But you just dismissed them saying "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG!". There might be a myriad of reasons why your highlights clip in that RED material. Without the REDRAW's I can't easily tell why. It is common knowledge that Alexa has about one and a half of stops more latitude in highlights. And Epic is slightly better in shadows. So just underexpose for that latitude.

It's awesome to just go by "WHAT LOOKS GOOD!" without any knowledge of different cameras technicalities. But that can cause situations like this where you believe the C300 to be very good after watching properly graded material done by professionals over Vimeo... You think there are C300 material that clips? No, there is not. Because the camera is in the hands of so few people yet and those who use it will not let it clip.

 

[Nuno Dias]

Dude... doesn't the camera come out in January or something?

Please stop calling me dude. And yes, the camera comes out next year, but have you seen the four short films! Pay attention DUDE!

And yes, in those four shorts, there are plenty of strong backlight scenes, either natural or artificial light. And never, ever I saw a clipped image. And Maarek, don't be like that, please. I showed clips other than my own from the Red and the clipping was there full on!

Other than say I can't light, it would be much more polite for you to understand what it is I'm trying to show and join in with facts and pictures, rather than acting moronic.

Why don't you just grab a clip from that Alexa commercial that you KNOW clips and post it here! Otherwise this discussion with you is going nowhere.

 

[greymog]

'facts' state that all acquisition formats, digital sensors and film will clip. yes film clips, but it clips gracefully. it's what happens. to say a camera doesn't clip is not factual. Why so worked up?

give this a read mate. good stuff

http://prolost.com/blog/2008/6/2/on-clipping-part-1.html

 

[maarek]

Why don't you just grab a clip from that Alexa commercial that you KNOW clips and post it here! Otherwise this discussion with you is going nowhere.

Well the thing is we don't clip our Alexa or RED material. We are just a postproduction house so we don't shoot them ourselves but do oversee some shootings. Maybe if you could take a look at our reel and guess which of these are shot with RED, Alexa, 5d or 35mm film?

http://vimeo.com/29767947

 

[Melvin Harris]

Please stop calling me dude. And yes, the camera comes out next year, but have you seen the four short films! Pay attention DUDE!

And yes, in those four shorts, there are plenty of strong backlight scenes, either natural or artificial light. And never, ever I saw a clipped image. And Maarek, don't be like that, please. I showed clips other than my own from the Red and the clipping was there full on!

First of all, don't ask not to have a word not applied to you and then use the word, that's asinine. Second, I have seen the short films, but I am not going to make statements that are empirical in nature with only four examples, that is asinine, also.

Don't turn your ire on me.
Prove your point without being inflammatory.
Stop your derivation into personal attacks and get back to your argument which was bordering on logical until you decided to go off on tirades.

Maarek is right, the camera is in the hands of a few who will not let it clip. Your aesthetics are one thing, but pontificating about a camera you haven't even touched yet is, well, not the best way to ingratiate yourself and your argument.

You said:

As this is my job, how I earn my living, I need to know how much I can rely on specs or, if on the other hand, I need to understand and study more about sensor design and its architecture, because as of now, it sure seems like specs are not what its all about...

This I, and probably others, can get behind. This was a logical point and was a good basis for further discussion.

I was with you here...
Get back here...

I don't want to get banned, but this is as nice as I am going to get.

Thank you and good day.

 

[Nuno Dias]

Yes, I know what clipping is and why sensors clip.

This is basic photography knowledge, but here it goes: The very basics of this were 'designed' by Mr. Ansel Adams. The Zone System. In that zone, you have 10 shades, from pure black to pure white, zone V being the middle grey, the zone to where al light meters read from, and from where all DPs base their expose on. When an image blows out into pure white, lets say zone 9/10, (film can read 9 from 10) its because the cinematographer wished so, the problem I see in the Red sensor, is that when it gets to zone 7/8 (aprox) it stops reading, and it just clips! Where as on the C300 and the Alexa, I didn't see this happen. Not saying it reads further than zone 7/8 also, but at least they don't give you white noise!

I backed up this with pictures, and what I got was denial and attacks. So, no I'm not getting worked up, just frustrated that I was trying to have a decent discussion, but instead got silly fanboyism.

 

[yoclay]

Yes, all cameras clip. That's for sure. I think the real issue is do you have a gentle roll off into white or a hard, sudden shoulder? I honestly don't think it's possible to evaluate this aspect from 4 promo films. It is entirely possible that the degree of professionalism involved in both the shooting and later in post has more to do with a lack of blown highlights than the camera itself. I know personally that even when I encounter this problem in grading there are about 15 things I can do to remedy it. It is also very clear to me when I look at the skies in most of these vids that they have been well worked by the colorist.

The only way to evaluate this aspect is through hands on experience and to see the workarounds based on the strengths and weaknesses of each type of sensor in a given situation. Incidentally I consider HDRx something of a workaround for the time being as well because it does not always deal with motion well and there are several situations where the mapping is problematic.

Ultimately, I know personally if I was doing a promo video for Canon I would make darn well sure that I was not clipping the highlights and I know also that I would never buy into a camera based purely on it's promo videos either.

Let's wait and see.

 

[Nuno Dias]

Thank you and good day.

Yes, please. This was going ok before you joined in. So yes, please have a good day and don't come back to try and make this a nasty discussion as you so obviously are trying to do.

You don't agree with me, that's fine. But don't say I'm being inflammatory or a troll, by saying that, you are doing exactly that! As I said, I tried to make my case, the last thing I expected was for someone like you to come and ruin this discussion.

Thank you very much, but no thanks,

 

[Nuno Dias]

Yes, all cameras clip. That's for sure. I think the real issue is do you have a gentle roll off into white or a hard, sudden shoulder? I honestly don't think it's possible to evaluate this aspect from 4 promo films. It is entirely possible that the degree of professionalism involved in both the shooting and later in post has more to do with a lack of blown highlights than the camera itself. I know personally that even when I encounter this problem in grading there are about 15 things I can do to remedy it. It is also very clear to me when I look at the skies in most of these vids that they have been well worked by the colorist.

The only way to evaluate this aspect is through hands on experience and to see the workarounds based on the strengths and weaknesses of each type of sensor in a given situation. Incidentally I consider HDRx something of a workaround for the time being as well because it does not always deal with motion well and there are several situations where the mapping is problematic.

Ultimately, I know personally if I was doing a promo video for Canon I would make darn well sure that I was not clipping the highlights and I know also that I would never buy into a camera based purely on it's promo videos either.

That's fine, but I know that when you have a clipped image, no matter what you try to do in post, you won't get rid of it, because the sensor wasn't able to record any information on those highlights, so you can't make up for something that is not there. Unless, of course, you replace the entire sky (or whatever it is that is clipped) but I surely hope that that's not what they did in the Canon shorts...

When I first posted frames from the C300, I specifically choose shots that had hard highlights in them, either the sun or production 'lights', meaning, that if the camera is easy to clip, in those scenes they would most certainly clip, and they didn't

But I'm not saying this is a fact, just what I saw from those shorts that's all.