Inexpensive hi-def woes

[Barry_Green]

though I still want to know what the problem is with using firewire to laptop methods with DVCproHD... why don't people just do this?

Many of us will, and do. There is no problem with it. It's how Evin shot his proflowers.com spot. Some people are resistant to the idea of having a cable running to a computer, but -- seriously, this is the way we shot an entire indie feature. There's always cables coming off the camera; there's always a cable to the monitor and two cables in from the sound guy and one cable going back out to the sound guy -- what's the big deal with adding a firewire cable too? We shot 80%-90% of a DVX feature on DV Rack recorded straight to computer. It's no big deal. It works extremely well.

Not suitable for all circumstances, obviously. But then again, no tool is.

 

[toke lahti]

My only consern is that if a half year after or year after hvx, comes a similiar camera that records to some standard inexpensive media (like cf) and Panny keeps the p2 prices up, value of hvx might drop dramatically.
I'm not doing so much DP work, that I wanted to buy a new camera every year if the former camera's value drops close to nothing.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry, with all do respect I don't appreciate the Troll comment. You don't know me so please refrain from personal attacks.

I didn't intend any sort of personal attack. I didn't call you a troll. I said some of your statements were "bordering" on trolling, which they were. Perhaps you didn't mean them that way? Some clarification would be appreciated.

I am free to have my opinion about the product and having a different one than yours makes me NOT a troll.

Differing opinions are fine. Differing opinions do not make one a troll, differing opinions make for intelligent intellectual debate and lively conversation.

Making statements that are simply not factual does cause me a problem though. You are correct, I don't know you. You had maybe 19 posts at the time you made those comments, and the boards have been swamped in negativity recently, so after seeing a few claims presented as fact (which were quite simply not fact), I said that your comments were "bordering" on trolling (trolling being defined as making incendiary statements in order to provoke a reaction). And as a moderator, it is our job to protect this board from new members who lob molotov cocktails around trying to stir up trouble. Had I thought you were an actual troll, your posts would have been deleted and your membership banned. If John Hudson had seen this, I can guarantee you you would have been banned on the spot. But Hudson doesn't visit the HVX discussion forums. Rather than take steps such as that, I'd rather give you an opportunity to explain what you meant. If you'd had 100 posts or more, I'd have been less quick to call you in question.


Every once in a while we moderators get it wrong, and I'm hoping this is one of those cases.

Here are the statements I have a problem with -- and these are not a disagreement of opinion, these are documentable factually incorrect statements:

"I've known about P2 for a long while but guess what the prices are just as high as they were 9 months ago - that is not good."

Not true. 9 months ago a 4GB card was $1750, today it's $650. Two months ago a 4GB card was $900, today it's $650. Do you deny this? How can you say that prices are just as high as they were 9 months ago?

"(note: they will not be 50% cheaper in 1 year, keep dreaming). "

They will almost definitely be 50% cheaper in 1 year, and probably 75% cheaper if recent history in memory, hard disks, and P2 cards are anything to judge by. Do you deny this?

"The HVX failed by betting everything on the P2 media. "

The HVX hasn't "failed" anything. Surely you can see that that can be considered a troll-caliber statement? That's the one that pushed me over the edge. Someone who wants to make an honest contribution to an ongoing discussion wouldn't go into HVXUser/DVXUser and say that the HVX failed. It's only been out for three weeks, for cryin' out loud! Do you honestly mean to say that the HVX is a "failed" product? I really don't know what you intended to accomplish by lobbing this particular firebomb into the middle of the discussion. Clarification would be appreciated.

"4GB cards are useless. "
And yet, somehow I manage to use them every day... Do you actually mean to say that they are "useless", or could you be perhaps persuaded to say something less incendiary such as "well, for my workflow I can't see how 4GB cards would work for the things I do." There's a world of difference in those statements. One is a clear statement of personal preference in an objective fashion, and one is an incendiary comment. I can't see how a documentary shooter would work with 4GB cards, frankly. But for what I do, 4GB cards work just fine and they are far from "useless".

Maybe then you will see that I'm far from a troll.

I'm sure that you are, and I hope you can appreciate my position. I did not call you a troll, I said that some of your comments bordered on trolling, and there is a big difference.

 

[Barry_Green]

My only consern is that if a half year after or year after hvx, comes a similiar camera that records to some standard inexpensive media (like cf) and Panny keeps the p2 prices up, value of hvx might drop dramatically.
I'm not doing so much DP work, that I wanted to buy a new camera every year if the former camera's value drops close to nothing.

Well that's certainly a valid concern. Especially in such a high-transition market as we're currently experiencing. Just over one year ago there was no practical low-cost high-def product on the market; today (and shortly) we have FX1 and Z1 and HVX and HD100 and XLH1 and XDCAM HD and Infinity and Red. If you make money with the camera, it's really not much of an issue; these cameras are low-cost enough that they'll pay for themselves in short order. These lower-cost cameras are capable of paying themselves off in a month or less, so resale value is a whole lot less of a concern for those who use them to generate income.

As to whether something will come out in six months or a year or whatever, well, there's always some concern about that but -- at some point you have to make your decision and take the plunge. People have been waiting for three and a half years for Sony's 24P response to the original DVX100 and it never came. Now Sanyo's got a tiny little $799 high-def 720/30P camera out. You never know what's coming next. Pick the tool that does the job that you need done, knowing that something "better" will come out down the line, just like with cars where we know every year that there'll be a newer model with better features -- that doesn't mean that your current car's value drops to "next to nothing"!

 

[Kholi]

Many of us will, and do. There is no problem with it. It's how Evin shot his proflowers.com spot. Some people are resistant to the idea of having a cable running to a computer, but -- seriously, this is the way we shot an entire indie feature. There's always cables coming off the camera; there's always a cable to the monitor and two cables in from the sound guy and one cable going back out to the sound guy -- what's the big deal with adding a firewire cable too? We shot 80%-90% of a DVX feature on DV Rack recorded straight to computer. It's no big deal. It works extremely well.

Not suitable for all circumstances, obviously. But then again, no tool is.

See! Thank you SO much, Barry!

I kept asking myself.. "Am I missing something here? Can you not do this?" And that's why I kept inquiring as to WHY people were so hesitant to just firewire the damned footage and worry about p2 when the prices come down or larger p2 storage is available. This sounds like the most cost effective workflow to me.

So what if youhave wires running off of the camera? In most situations, you're going to have wires running off of it ANYWAY, so what's one more if it means high quality and presumably lossless footage?

I guess I'd need to find out if you can record HD footage through firewire as well. I have Final Cut Pro HD and I'd assume that you could... am I wrong?

Gahd I can't wait to rent this damned camera next week.

 

[Barry_Green]

I guess I'd need to find out if you can record HD footage through firewire as well. I have Final Cut Pro HD and I'd assume that you could... am I wrong?

You are not wrong, you can do exactly that.

 

[Kholi]

You are not wrong, you can do exactly that.

Then what the hell is all the fuss? Archiving issues -- Fine. But, capturing? Come on...

I don't even know much about ANY of the cameras, and I can see that complaining about p2 issues before even using the camera just doesn't work. If you can't afford it, work around it until you can.

Sheesh.

Thanks for answering my questions, Barry.

 

[wabbit]

My only consern is that if a half year after or year after hvx, comes a similiar camera that records to some standard inexpensive media (like cf) and Panny keeps the p2 prices up, value of hvx might drop dramatically.
I'm not doing so much DP work, that I wanted to buy a new camera every year if the former camera's value drops close to nothing.

If you are running a video business you need a business plan. Basically if a camera can't pay for itself in 3 years, you shouldn't invest in it. NAB 2006 is 3 months away and you can bet some very exciting new camera developments will be annouced then, as they are most every year now. It does not make your camera obsolete. People are still buying the DVX and clearly it is outdated now. But is still works to shoot great looking SD video and make people money.

Inside the next 3 years many new cameras will be out there "better" then the HVX at a similar price point. Can you still use your HVX to shoot great looking video (if that is what you buy)? Of course. Heck, I know a guy still regularly getting paid to shoot with his XL1.

Camera's are more like cars then real estate; once you drive them off the lot, they have lost half their resale value. If you aint making money with their use, you aint making money.

If your business plan does not have you doing enough professional work to have the camera (and necessary accessories) at least 1/3 paid for by the end of year, you should probably rent when needed.

If you want to make yourself crazy with how fast cameras are evolving now, go check out the RED camera forum. :shocked: If their promise comes thru, it will have everyone beat for several years to come.

Cheers

 

[BobDiaz]

From Barry:

Not true. 9 months ago a 4GB card was $1750, today it's $650. Two months ago a 4GB card was $900, today it's $650. Do you deny this? How can you say that prices are just as high as they were 9 months ago?

This brings up an interesting point. The price points seem to be:

Around $2,000 Larger P2 Memory Card
UNDER $1,000 Smaller P2 Memroy Card​

The 2GB P2 Card is no longer shipping, correct? In the past, the 4GB was the larger card and the 2GB the smaller card. With the 8GB, Panasonic drops the 2GB, makes the 4GB the smaller and the 8GB the larger.

My guess is that when the 16GB card comes out, the 4GB will be dropped, the 8GB will become the smaller P2 card at UNDER $1,000 and the 16GB will be the larger card at around $2,000.

After that, wait another 1.5 years, give or take, and the 32GB card comes out. At that point, the price points stay the same, but the 16GB becomes the smaller card.

It seems to fit the pattern I've seen with computer technology.


Bob Diaz

 

[Antoine_Fabi]

I think you're right Bob.

Apple used ( and still uses ) this pricing method for his computers.

The same logic seems to apply here.

 

[jmfox]

It seems like a simple production decision. Tape technology is not progressing at the same rate as other forms of digital storage. Cost analysis justified an atypical work-flow. The expense of P2 is a premium paid by those who require portability (still cheaper than DVCPRO cameras with on-board tape); for all others it is just another wire connected to a computer that most of us already own.

jmf

 

[5ive]

Well after reading the majority of the post I'm quite surprised that LTO, as a back-up option was not mentioned. Some time ago I posted a possible solution for backing-up P2 cards on an HVX shoot. This workflow came to me by way of Frame Blender (post house Toronto). Since lots of people (not everyone) producers, clients and shooters are still uncomfortable with the cost of the P2 cards as the stand now. Banks have been using this technology to back-up their data for years and it is as close to bulletproof as you can get. And you’ll have a physical tape in hand for the just in case scenario. I offer this idea as a solution.

I’d appreciate your feedback.

Tandberg 420LTO Tape Drive 200 gigs uncompressed data on tape
http://www.inostor.com/products/products_420LTO2.htm

I've seen this drive for sale as cheap as $1300

Adaptec Mac PCMCIA Slim SCSI Adapter $145
http://techstore.doit.wisc.edu/product.asp?login=D&itemnum=C23015

http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/pr...t=/Technology/SCSI+(Desktop)/SCSI+for+Laptops

EMC DANTZ RETROSPECT
http://www.dantz.com/en/about/news/detail.dtml?id=263

Apple G4 PowerBook
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore/

LTO specs:
Capacity
200/400GB
Transfer Speed
24/48GB/s
SCSI Burst Rate
320MB/s
Power Consumption (operation)
18W

 

[mochouinard]

Well after reading the majority of the post I'm quite surprised that LTO, as a back-up option was not mentioned.

DLT,LTO... have about a 30% restore failure point. It is not too bad if you do daily Full backup, so you have the same video backup 30 time per month, but in general the idea is to have 1 or 2 backup of 1 video. And at 30% of failure, and lifespan of 8 year, it not that great.

Tape is not something I have learned to trust.

 

[5ive]

DLT,LTO... have about a 30% restore failure point.

What do you mean exactly... The system fails to properly back-up 30% of the time or does it fail to restore the footage 70% of the time?

but in general the idea is to have 1 or 2 backup of 1 video.

Well the system I'm suggestion is a portable onsite package that the DP or producer would use either during or at the end of the day. It's about feeling comfortable, some people just want to have a tape in their hands. And I wasn’t suggestion that the LTO be used as it was intended. The tapes are about $65.00 for 200 gigs. Its a back-up for the days shoot. There have been lots of complaints so I offer this as an alternative solution.

Tape is not something I have learned to trust.

So... what have you been shooting on? I'm not trying to bate you but tape has been used for years. It's not perfect, but right now 99% of content is delivered to broadcasters on tape. Yes, It going to change and some broadcasters already have changed to a tape less workflow. I know of a Broadcaster who have been shooting XD Cam for some time now. but there are still lots of tape machines there and the majority of their archive is tape base. (Digi Beta and Sx)
Two of their series were delivered on tape; Mini DV and HDV


So why don't you trust tape??
:huh:

And for the record P2 at this point is too freaking expensive, but it will get cheaper and the capacities will get bigger. So that’s why I'm going the firestore route. I'll shoot Dv with the HVX until the drives become available.

 

[toke lahti]

Basically if a camera can't pay for itself in 3 years, you shouldn't invest in it.

This used to be the business model. But with p2 against other standard memory cards, situation might be that the resale value drops to zero in one year. I can and have been able to cope with 3-year life span. I'm just a little bit worried about this new situation with p2. Even sony has shown quiet signs of moving more towards "standards" and not making their proprietary solutions in every case.

If you want to make yourself crazy with how fast cameras are evolving now, go check out the RED camera forum. :shocked: If their promise comes thru, it will have everyone beat for several years to come.

Common opinion about RED is that it's going to have price with 5 numbers anyway and propably over $100k. So it's way out of my league. I live in a economic zone where even digibeta cameras have been too expensive to own.
And most of my income comes from post production, technical stuff and assistant level of work, but I'm going to buy hvx anyway, even if it's not economical decision.
I just want a good 16:9 camera with at least 1/3" imager. Hvx is actually the cheapest camera of this type. (I don't count xl2 into this category, because it uses smaller area of imager fot video than 1/3".)

 

[toke lahti]

Around $2,000 Larger P2 Memory Card
UNDER $1,000 Smaller P2 Memroy Card

Price of 4GB was $1650 when it came out. Price of 8GB is $2200 now.
So it seems that there's also a premium of 1/3 when new card comes to market.
If it continues the same way 16GB will be $2900 next fall and 32GB $3900 in summer 2007.
Let's hope that there will come some 3rd party manufacturers to drop prices with competition.
Does anybody know how closed p2 is in the matter of patents and their fees?
Will there ever be any 3rd party p2 cards?

 

[toke lahti]

DLT,LTO... have about a 30% restore failure point.

Are you saying that if I make 10 identical DLT/LTO back-up tapes, 3 of them has corrupted data? This is really new to me. Can you elaborate?

 

[mochouinard]

Are you saying that if I make 10 identical DLT/LTO back-up tapes, 3 of them has corrupted data? This is really new to me. Can you elaborate?

I work in big IT environment, we send out 45 DLT/LTO daily full backup to off-site archive national wide. When asked for restore, about 30% of the request can't be foofiled because of tape failure. They are sometime lucky and they asked for something recent with the daily retention policy, so we have previous days or next days that work. So we always request all the weekly tape back. But when alittle longer (6 month +) Well they are most offen screw. And we are asked about 3 restore per week ranging from 1 day to 8 year.

So this not so bad since we do full backup everyday of all the documents. But with video, I wouldn't want that unless you are rich and love to waste your time.

I trust more saving to 1 or 2 External HD, 1 for offsite archival, 1 for local access plus the additional Raid 5 (or Raid 6) data storage with all your content in there for live access, or as a repertory then copy them to your workstation for editing. But you might be lucky with Tape and not have a problem, but my experience with high usage of DLT/LTO/Other Tape solution is if you have alternative for about the same price, go for it.

 

[doondoon]

Steve, In 5 years this might be true, but you are not looking at the big picture. When recording sound on a film what do they use? Portable DAT or Portable Hard Drives? Answer: DAT.

Not to mention that it's much cheaper to offload Audio than HD. You can actually backup all audio to DAT or DVD for a reasonable price. It takes much less space than HD.

Let me add. I do agree with you, I'm glad Panasonic is pushing technology but they should offer both tape and P2 as it's too early to bet it all on P2. You are also right about the ease of computer based editing. There is no argument that we want everything to end up on a hard drive but there is still the problem of management and long term storage of the material.

Actually a lot of Sound Guys are now recording to portable HARD DRIVES. One of my good friends has been doing sound on "ER" for years now... he always uses harddrives.

 

[mochouinard]

Well the system I'm suggestion is a portable onsite package that the DP or producer would use either during or at the end of the day. It's about feeling comfortable, some people just want to have a tape in their hands. And I wasn’t suggestion that the LTO be used as it was intended. The tapes are about $65.00 for 200 gigs. Its a back-up for the days shoot. There have been lots of complaints so I offer this as an alternative solution.

We still use tape even if 30% of restore failure, just because of the people making the decision dont know much and will only rely on what the other are doing. So they might all do stupid thing, but atless he is not alone, they are insecure. It the only way to go. Some other IT director just switched to Hard disk backup and comments we had localy is they love it. It is soo fast to do restore, just put HD live in PC, and backup in second get the catalog and a few more second the file is restore.... And so far with 2 year deployment, they had 0% of restore failure, so for it a success .

So... what have you been shooting on?

I have been using tape... And it why I so welcome P2. Tape for me was just a temporary anoying transport from camera to PC. (Firewire didnt cut it all the time). FS-100 will be nice but I would ratter have a cineporter with the live access to delete content. Also cineporter are looking for raid 1(mirror) so if 1 HD failed, you still have the other. Only problem is if 1 HD failed, it probably because of shock and the other disk will failed also. I gave cineporter maker a few idea on how to improve their product, like adding a 1GigE port for live access to content, and record to a remove server, add poweroverethernet as power source of cineporter and camera, and so one and on..

What I dont like!!! is the HARD DISK!!!! So a remote HD on a stable location is fine in Raid 1,5,6. But hard disk can be worst as tape.

And for the record P2 at this point is too freaking expensive, but it will get cheaper and the capacities will get bigger. So that’s why I'm going the firestore route. I'll shoot Dv with the HVX until the drives become available.

The problem people with firestore will have is the lack of other backup media. Since firestore itself isn't a secure recording device, you need a backup. It why at start Firestore was a backup to tape, then tape became a backup to firestore. Now the IDEA is P2 doesn't need a on camera backup it I like that.

It all a question on how someone want to work.
My workflow will be :
P2 camera -> Laptop interface to write to -> 2x External Firewire HD
Once at studio with the external HD, I dump video to Raid 5 storage
Then copy to 2 SATA HD for permanent archive, 1 home and 1 off-site
Empty the external Firewire HD and back we go.

PS. P2 have read speed fast ennuf to write to 2 HD at the same time, so no it not taking twice the time...