Inexpensive hi-def woes

Tape may not be 100% bullet proof my I can honestly say that hard drives are much less reliable. I have lost at least a dozen drives in the last 6 years that had critical DV data on them. Most were unrecoverable. If I had to guess I have had maybe 30 to 40 pass through my systems so that is not a very good ratio.

On the other hand I have had about 5-6 DV tapes get eaten, wrinkled stretched or mangled in that same time. I would guess at least 100 tapes in my archive. Of these problems I have been able to salvage 95% of the footage on them except for the affected area of tape by opening the cartridge and splicing or manipulating the tape and path.

In addition these very tapes saved my butt when the "reliable" hard drives lost everything and I was able to go back to the DV tapes.

I have had so many bad experiences with hard drives I get sick thinking I am going to rely on them to keep my important footage after I wipe the P2 card clean.
The only way I am going to feel remotely comfortable is to mirror or raid drives....even then I am always waiting for the other shoe to fall.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
The HVX wouldn't exist without P2. In time P2 prices will come down and storage capacity will increase. It's not perfect for many people right now, but there are plenty of other options to choose from.
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well said. Panasonic made a wise decision to provide a way to record the DVCProHD codec without adding a $12k? tape drive

and med, i hope my reply didn't come off sounding harsh. i still haven't had my cup of coffee and friday morning donut

mmmm.. donuts
 
I think the real issue here is how fast technology is advancing in some areas with other areas playing catch up.

The camera is (semi) out there now with storage, delivery systems and public consumption playing catch up. Truth is, it simply came out too soon and average joes who don't have deep pockets have put the cart before the horse by buying now. It all depends on who you are and what you need the camera for.

Are you a hobbyist? Indi film maker? Or are you looking to shoot commercial work in HD to pay for the camera? As of this moment, you can't create an HD dvd. And how many HD TV's are in homes around the world? How many TV stations are dedicated to HD broadcast? Truth is, as of right now, very few.

Maybe the reason you're salivating for HD is to be able to project your projects at film festivals and have it hold up as compared to DV? Or pray your content is strong enough to get a distribution deal from a major studio?

Either way, the point is, this camera is ahead of it's time. It's been announced that Blue Ray will be coming out this summer with HD DVD following about 6 months after that. I guarantee you, computer manufacturers will be incorporating this technology into their laptops and in time you will be able to transfer your HD footage off the camera into larger capacity portable hard drives (much larger than P2). If you have two of these hard drives (call them firestores or whatever other competing manufacturer will put out there) you can transfer your footage from one drive onto your portable laptop and burn your footage to a disc while you continue shooting with the other drive.

Bottom line point:

The technology for storage will catch up to the camera. Just sucks for people who bought now and don't have deep pockets to be able to afford to use it now. In the mean time, you can always shoot DV on the HVX and record to tape there. It's not different from shooting DVX like most of us are doing right now, right?

Personally, I think we should all spend more time in pre-production developing our projects. Content is ultimately what will make your project succeed.
 
P2 and XDCam are the way forward, tape will be dead within the next 5 years.

Panny will soon have a P2 Varicam, Sony will not announce any more tape based Pro cameras. Even domestic cameras are starting to move to DVD or solid state.

Tape has served us well but it's time to move forward.
 
I am tired of people complaining about P2 as been bad because it too pricy.

4gig = 4x1gig = about 400$ + cost of extra speed rate + error free.
then you add to that the PCMCIA form factor + the cost of the RAID controler...

now if a 4gig card cost 650$ I think it not too bad.

Now do not compare P2 with Tape or anything else, because it is unique in the field.

Let talk about the CON of the miniDV format :
Offer 25mbits bandwidth top (excluding making the tape going faster, it increase error)
Sensible to temperature
Sensible to light
Sensible to TIME
Sensible to vibration
Sensible to dust or any outside elements
Reusing tape increase risk of lost of data
Affected by magnetic
Affected by some scanning system (It could be something else than xray, but I know I had lost of data when I went throught some custom)
Useless as a mid-long term backup solution
Real-time access only
Slow access to section on tape

I will stop there but you see that none of those apply to the P2 card.

Some might never had problem with tape, and can live by it. But as mostly everyone been wanting is always have a backup because of how not reliable it can be.

P2 allow user not to have a backup until you dump those card. Now you can make copy then, because Hard disk are prone to failed.

Anyway, my choice is clear P2. I am not rich, but I see it potential, and I am ready to spend more to get it.
 
As for P2 versus XDCAM, well XDCAM is limited to 23gig and I dont think it will increase in the short term (Especially, the camera will have to be replaced for the increases capacity).

Now you are still subsebtible to a few things :
Heat
Lightling
Vibration (Ok camera might have a 1gig of cache or something, but ...)
Require extra power.
Require form factor that have to hold the disk.
Dust/Scratchs.
Calibration of the laser can need to be adjusted
Cleaning the writing device

And I will stop there.

Now as you see, the only solution that save them all is the P2.

The only big problem with P2 is the actual pins in the camera that could be damaged, but I never saw any laptop with PCMCIA pins damaged, so unless you stick a knike in your camera, you will be fine.

So again, price is an issues, and size is an issue but that it. Compared to all the others issues the other options have, well I am sorry but the P2 is the grant winner.

Of course until 64gig P2 card are available, well for 1 hours recording, you will need to swap the p2 card offen. But you can rent a external tape deck, record
via component. Or get a short future FS-100 or a cineporter, but those have problem just by been using hard disk.
 
Bottom line point:

The technology for storage will catch up to the camera..[/QUOTE]

Word. I guess if you've already put off your big feature till now to shoot with this new camera, having to wait until the summer is a deal-breaker.

Once I finally get my hands on this camera (march/april), spend time getting VERY comfortable with it (may), and get ready to shoot (june), I'll need a better storage sol

Total frustration over having to wait four to six months for blu-ray, cine-porter, ect to arrive doesn't make sense to me. I'm not a professional DP who's looking to shoot tomorrow. I'm an indie director who is planning well in advance. The time table's not a problem for me.

Tortoise and the Hare.

ps: I don't understand how one could compare tape with P2. You can't download a tape and plug it back into a camera for re-use in a matter of minutes. Apples and Oranges.
 
FullRez said:
How many hours do you shoot for a typical feature?
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10 to 20.
How many P2 Cards will you need to accomplish this?
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Two.
What will they cost? (note: they will not be 50% cheaper in 1 year, keep dreaming).
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$650 each, and they'll probably be 75% cheaper in one year, if we can use 2005 as an example -- they dropped 75% in one year, why not again?

Ok, so you only need enough to get you through one day because you can offload and use them over, so then how many do you need realisticaly for one day?
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Two 4Gb's. Offload to a laptop. I've done it, it's enough. Three is better, but two's enough. 8Gb's would be better, but 4's are enough.

but don't pretend it's cheaper than tape
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To make your statement fair you have to compare apples against apples. Nobody's going to "pretend" that it's cheaper than HDV, but HDV ain't DVCPRO-HD. The DVCPRO-HD P2 workflow, and transferring to hard disks or to data tape, *is* cheaper than using DVCPRO-HD tape. Much, much less expensive than using DVCPRO-HD (or HDCAM) tape.

The HVX failed by betting everything on the P2 media.
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What kind of stupid statement is this? Failed? Come on... it's been out three weeks, and it's backordered massively. And "betting everything"? How about the FireStore or the CinePorter or direct-to-computer? You don't ever have to even use a P2 card. There are options and alternatives.

Your statements make no sense. They're inflammatory and misleading.
 
FullRez said:
When recording sound on a film what do they use? Portable DAT or Portable Hard Drives? Answer: DAT.
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Wrong answer. DAT's pretty much extinct. Pro audio recording is pretty much all hard disk or solid state nowadays.
 
Tony Torn said:
ps: I don't understand how one could compare tape with P2. You can't download a tape and plug it back into a camera for re-use in a matter of minutes. Apples and Oranges.
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Umm......the point is you don't have to. Why would I want to take a tape out and download it and then reuse it on the spot? That's not a benefit...that's a pain in the butt and the only reason anyone is willing to do it is the cost of P2 is so prohibitive. DV tape is very inexpensive and had long record times. Maybe if I could only record 4 minutes on it we'd have a comparison.

By the same token you can't take 35mm film stock and download it and re-use it in a matter of minutes. Who would want to? The benefit of Compact flash over film was that it stored literally hundreds of images versus 35mm still cameras rolls which would hold 24-30 prints and was not reusable. In the case of P2 we are seeing a major decrease in storage. Now we are being told that instead of 1 hour of DV on a $10 tape we can have what?? 20 minutes of DV for $650 on a P2 card and then wipe it out after download and have no backup.


Anyway my point wasn't comparing tape to P2 but rather HD storage to tape storage. Currently I capture footage to my edit suite and work on it while my "tape" backup exists without any effort. In my experience the tapes have always been good when I need to go back to them for something. However I have had my share of currupt .avi files and corrupt quicktime movies and failed hard disks to feel very uncomfortable with my original footage residing only on disk based media. Even on redundant disks....if the files get corrupted during your workflow where are you going to get them back from? Better hope your mirror image or raid doesn't have a corrupt version too or you are up a creek....

I just don't completely trust hard drive based backup systems with these large amounts of data. With such large individual files (HD .movs or whatever) if one bit gets dropped the whole file could be screwed.
 
FullRez said:
I've known about P2 for a long while but guess what the prices are just as high as they were 9 months ago - that is not good.
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How can you say this? Dude, I think you're bordering on trolling.

Nine months ago a 4GB card was $1750. Today it's $650. Those are documentable facts, and you would be well advised to stick to 'em rather than making baseless and incendiary claims please.

We also need to get away with "it's like shooting film". Do you know how many directors and DP's I know that wish they had longer recording time on film.
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It *is* just like shooting film. You may want longer record times, but that doesn't change what it *is*.

Nobody wants to go back in time. Nobody said they wanted to go back in time. But that doesn't change that the workflow is entirely useable, it's been used in movies for 100 years and it works, and today's cards can provide the same workflow, and it's only going to get better.
 
I'm experiencing some heavy-duty deja vu. I've been doing graphic design now for almost twenty years. I was there when everything was switching over to the computer and the issues then were virtually identical.

When Photoshop came out in 1990, everyone was freaked out about the storage options. After all, an 8 x 10, 300ppi, CMYK image would take up almost 30mb (back then, 120mb drives were considered big). What would we do? Of course, we all bought the very expensive SyQuest 44mb tape drives (or some other option) and somehow found a way to deal with it. Once there, none of us could imagine going back.

Early adopters will always be hit hardest. But this camera is not a toy that you hobbie around with. If you're a working videographer or indie DP, you bill these expenses into the job just like I billed in the price of a 44mb SyQuest disk. Obvioulsy, if you don't have the clientele that needs HD, then the advatages of this camera won't be immediately evident. But for the clients who are already needing HD, this camera will probably save them a great deal of money --- even with the added P2 expenses you have to bill into the job.

Finally, let us not forget that the P2 option is the thing that sets this camera apart, not just because of the tapeless workflow, but because of the three huge benefits it affords us -- a pro codec, 4:2:2 color, and variable framerates. Try shooting slow-mo at 60fps on the Canon, or JVC, or Sony. Not gonna happen. And, from what I understand, the DVCProHD will be much better than HDV at keying as well.

If you don't need these things, then this may not be the camera for you. But the tapeless workflow is an inevitability whatever camera you prefer (history proves this). Resistance IS futile! Engage!
 
meddesigner said:
But anyone who thinks these cards will come down in price is dreaming.
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You're either misinformed or intentionally trying to be misleading. Panasonic's made their whole case on P2 based on the plummeting price/skyrocketing capacity model. Stick to the facts please. If it doesn't work for you it doesn't work for you, but making absurd claims like this, in the face of existing evidence, is not kosher.
 
At the moment P2 doesn't fit ALL workflows, that is a fact. When P2 cards are 4 times the size and at least half the price then the revolution will be truly under way.
 
I have read all the comments with interest and feel everyone makes good points. My biggest problem with P2 is time vs. capacity vs. cost. I don’t want to rent anything, as we need to have it available when we need to shoot something.

In case anyone cares this camera system will be used in a large Level 1 Trauma center that is serviced by 4 helicopters. We have 90,000 patient visits a year and 2,300 LifeFlight drops per year and fall into the top 15 of medical centers in the country.

The material we shoot is in the ED and trauma bays to produce medical training videos. We also shoot a bit in the field and also produce materials that help train EMS personal for the city.

So the reason time is a critical factor is I do not want to have to worry about swapping the cards but could if it becomes necessary to do so.

I could buy the package system with 5 cards plus 1 or two additional cards. I could also shoot 720p/24 to increase time as well - 1080i is not a requirement.

At the end of the day I would like to get this system. The benefits are compelling. Does anyone know when the P2 switches from one card to another if one has a visual indicator in the LCD or viewfinder so one can pop the card and stick the next one in? Also was there a firm answer on if the system drops frames on at the point of the switch?

Thanks -
 
How is it that people don't know recent history? In 1991-2(?), I bought a 600mb (that's Megabyte -- not Gigabyte) hard drive for $2,000. Last week I bought a 250GB drive for $70 (after rebate - not valid in all states, some restrictions apply, batteries not included).
Unless up somehow becomes down and black somehow becomes white, the price of memory will continue to drop and always will. It's as inevitable as people bitching about new workflows or negligable noise levels.
 
Barry, it is getting frustrating, I have read alot and alot before posting my beleived, because I had to document myself about all the options and how they work.

P2 wont increase fast ennuf in size and price wont lower fast ennuf to make people happy. Even if it were 640$ for 60 minutes, they would still complain and compare to tape (but only about the price, they wont say everything that is bad about tape)

Anyway, recent posts got more and more frustrating, seeing people talking and pushing comment without looking at the options and the pro and con for each options.

I like a good discutions and getting somewhere, but this is getting no where except loosing writing and reading time.
 
meddesigner said:
Does anyone know when the P2 switches from one card to another if one has a visual indicator in the LCD or viewfinder so one can pop the card and stick the next one in?
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Yes there are indicators both in the VF/LCD and also through the lights on the back of the camera.

Also was there a firm answer on if the system drops frames on at the point of the switch?
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There are no dropped frames when a clip spans cards.
 
I've seen P2 workflow in a demo.

It works great !
It is extremely easy, and fast.

...and being able to record multi formats, variable frame rates, uncompressed audio in a small and lightweight camcorder makes me very verry happy.


...and yes ! P2 are getting more and more affordable, and more capacity.

This is a fact.
 
mochouinard said:
P2 wont increase fast ennuf in size and price wont lower fast ennuf to make people happy.
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Correction: to make SOME people happy.

Some people are happy with it right now. Lest we have need to put it in context, we're talking about a high-def variable-frame-rate camcorder with two 4gb cards for $7,000. That's 1/10 the cost of the only other camcorder on the market that can do it. Even the forthcoming XDCAM HD with variable frame rates will cost 5x as much as the HVX when you factor in a $12,000 lens.

So sure, some people won't be happy until there are 128gb cards for $4 each. But there's a lot of us right now who recognize the tool for what it is, and what it can do for our business. Evin paid his off in one weekend of work. I'm paying off a complete HVX+Mac+FCP+P2 system in one weekend of work in Feb.

So -- SOME people won't be happy. But there are plenty who are perfectly content right now, and who recognize that it's only going to get cheaper, bigger, and better as time passes.

I like a good discutions and getting somewhere, but this is getting no where except loosing writing and reading time.
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Pretty much agreed.
 
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