Improving my "run and gun" audio? New wireless lav options, pre-amps (juicedlink),etc

[scorsesefan]

Adding to what Puredrifting said is the issue of interviewing. IMO adding anything that is going to create a barrier between you and your subject is a negative -- like headphones for monitoring a wireless system. Ideally, you have a sound mixer on set, but that's not always possible. Yes, there are things that can go wrong with lav recorders, but IME the things that can go wrong with wireless systems, including dropouts and RF interference are far more common. Wireless lav recorders are a bit of a leap of faith, but in certain situations it's a risk I'm willing to take...

 

[puredrifting]

Adding to what Puredrifting said is the issue of interviewing. IMO adding anything that is going to create a barrier between you and your subject is a negative -- like headphones for monitoring a wireless system. Ideally, you have a sound mixer on set, but that's not always possible. Yes, there are things that can go wrong with lav recorders, but IME the things that can go wrong with wireless systems, including dropouts and RF interference are far more common. Wireless lav recorders are a bit of a leap of faith, but in certain situations it's a risk I'm willing to take...

Amen. Same here. As long as you learn how to effectively rig lavs (I am hyped on the Rycote Overcovers), I have not lost or ended up with unusable audio in over a year of using the Tascams. The Tascams sound amazingly good for the money, they also record a -6dB or -12dB safety channel so as long as your battery doesn't die (these record all day on a single AAA, unlike wireless systems that gobble through a lot of batteries) and you don't rig your lav badly, you end up with very usable audio. Not as good as a boom. Not as good as from a Lectro. But IMHO, usually better than what we get from lower end wireless, less noise and hiss. The 32-bit from the Tentacles will make even a safety channel not needed.

 

[rob norton]

I've used the 702 before, and it's a good piece of equipment. But I can't imagine easily being able to wrangle it while recording as a OMB, and actually making good use of it's capabilities?

I like the simple wired lav set up with the Tasam Dr10 for it's simplicity. I get better sound with the lav compared to a generally better sounding shotgun mic, simply because as a OMB I can get the lav into better positions. But for shoots with more movement, and the need to monitor audio, a wireless feed back to a simple recorder would help a lot.

Just a note on the SD recorder, when I owned a gh4 I used the golf tee looking pins to attach a key ring. Then to each key ring I clipped a carabiner. I attached them to two belt loops on my pants. I also taped a sony wireless receiver to the recorder. The limiters were awesome for the project, the audio was pretty hot but still struggled to clip. Everyone will have a different definition of what's easy to wrangle though. It was a good enough solution for recording separate audio. I just made sure I recorded to both devices no matter what then syncing the clips was easy enough. Obviously this was an extremely low budget project but my point is maybe you can revisit any recorders you've dismissed if there's a chance you can make it work by getting creative with how it's carried.

I'd really like to try something similar with an action cam eg gopro/insta360 - I think it'd be cool to have pristine audio while shooting video with this tiny cube in your hand/cube on stick.

 

[morgan_moore]

my SD - I drilled a couple of holes in the lid and added a rod mount. The configuration was shoulder mount with my camera. One can take an output and feed the camera to get one file, with a backup audio file

 

[junct]

I'm using the Tascam DR10Ls until the Tentacle releases. For me, OMB doc shooting, worrying about wireless, my Mix Pre3, bag, batteries, that is just too much gak and gear to deal with as I need to be a good interviewer/producer and cinematographer too. Syncing multiple subjexts is SUPER easy in FCP X, not sure why anyone couldn't make that all work but perhaps Premiere and Resolve don't sync audio as well? Doing a shoot this weekend with one of our main talents running a meeting. Will have a Tascam DR10L on her, two camera mics on two cameras and we get what we get. We don't have budget or resources to have a sound mixer. I could be the dedicated sound mixer myself, but not while doing camera, interviewing, etc. I've been running the Tascams now for a year and half on this project. So far, bullet proof, they've been amazingly good and reliable and we always get at least usable and sometimes really great sound. The Tentacles, when they hit, will be a timecode version of the DR10L on steroids with the 32 bit.

Wireless is fine for certain situations. But OMB/run & gun is not one of them as far as I'm concerned, unless you have a sound mxier. Too many gotchas, variables, UHF/2.4Ghz issues. I have two of the Røde wireless, they are great and we have the Deity Connect which is also good. So far, no problems with the Deity battery life, although that could be a factor if you are shooting 12-14 hours straight, but we rarely do, especially with wireless. I rent the Lectros, they are the best but at $6k per pair, they should be the best.

I think a post of yours was what lead me to the Dr10s in the first place.
I don't mind syncing stuff in post, I've done it on hundreds of projects. But that doesn't mean that having one less step wouldn't be nice. Of course, I'd rather spend an extra few minutes in post than have to trouble shoot scanning issues etc when I have half an hour to get an interview with a client.

The Tentacles sound promising. I need to read a bit more about them, as I wasn't familiar with their timecode solutions, but they might make a better long term investment at this point.

Didn't read through this entire thread as the audio pros here are always great (so not sure if anyone mentioned this), but just wanted to add that I never enjoyed audio more in life then after purchasing a F6 and recording 32-bit float.

It's a pastime of mine recovering blown audio or key-framing difficult dialogue.

I can tell you about 200 amazing camera improvements that happened in the last decade, but not sure any of them are as significant as this audio breakthrough from last year.

Interesting, I'm only catching up now on the last couple of years of audio tech development.

Missed this post earlier.

Yes, I use a G3 system to send audio from MixPre-6 II to the camera.

Thank you.

Adding to what Puredrifting said is the issue of interviewing. IMO adding anything that is going to create a barrier between you and your subject is a negative -- like headphones for monitoring a wireless system. Ideally, you have a sound mixer on set, but that's not always possible. Yes, there are things that can go wrong with lav recorders, but IME the things that can go wrong with wireless systems, including dropouts and RF interference are far more common. Wireless lav recorders are a bit of a leap of faith, but in certain situations it's a risk I'm willing to take...

I vehemently agree with this. Even using a boom op is noticably distracting (with subjects I've spent a few weeks with, I notice how much more relaxed they are if it's just me shooting with a DSLR, rather than a crew).

I have noticed proper monitoring headphones add another barrier, too. But i've wondered if maybe some decent in-ears would work. Obviously they're never going to be as good as monitoring headphones, but maybe it'll be enough to hear if someone's rubbing a mic/a stick has become dislodged etc, while still being less invasive..

In what situations do you find yourself using wireless lav systems over wired, and vice versa?

 

[junct]

Amen. Same here. As long as you learn how to effectively rig lavs (I am hyped on the Rycote Overcovers), I have not lost or ended up with unusable audio in over a year of using the Tascams. The Tascams sound amazingly good for the money, they also record a -6dB or -12dB safety channel so as long as your battery doesn't die (these record all day on a single AAA, unlike wireless systems that gobble through a lot of batteries) and you don't rig your lav badly, you end up with very usable audio. Not as good as a boom. Not as good as from a Lectro. But IMHO, usually better than what we get from lower end wireless, less noise and hiss. The 32-bit from the Tentacles will make even a safety channel not needed.

I've gotten better at rigging lavs, but do you have any good videos/articles on doing it? Most i've looked at are similarly vague. I used some of the overcovers when I last hired some lavs, and they made life a lot easier than messing around with different tapes to try and remove clothing noise.

 

[junct]

Will have a Tascam DR10L on her, two camera mics on two cameras and we get what we get.

What are you using for your on-camera mic set up? Are you running straight into the camera, through a pre-amp, with a dr10L, etc etc?

 

[NorBro]

Interesting, I'm only catching up now on the last couple of years of audio tech development.

It's hard to imagine until you experience it. Just pretend or look back at any time your audio was too hot/distorted/modulated, and picture simply dragging down the dB bar in post and it being perfectly fine. You still need good mic placement and it won't help against any potential interference with future wireless systems, but especially great for a OMB handling a lot of tasks.

 

[Alex H.]

Didn't read through this entire thread as the audio pros here are always great (so not sure if anyone mentioned this), but just wanted to add that I never enjoyed audio more in life then after purchasing a F6 and recording 32-bit float.

Worth noting that the MixPre II series also offers 32-bit float.

 

[NorBro]

Some might even like the SD ones better (of course they’re great too), but not 100% positive if they have a built-in/addable proprietary camera plate (only the thread).

 

[scorsesefan]

I think a post of yours was what lead me to the Dr10s in the first place.
I don't mind syncing stuff in post, I've done it on hundreds of projects. But that doesn't mean that having one less step wouldn't be nice. Of course, I'd rather spend an extra few minutes in post than have to trouble shoot scanning issues etc when I have half an hour to get an interview with a client.

The Tentacles sound promising. I need to read a bit more about them, as I wasn't familiar with their timecode solutions, but they might make a better long term investment at this point.





Interesting, I'm only catching up now on the last couple of years of audio tech development.



Thank you.


I vehemently agree with this. Even using a boom op is noticably distracting (with subjects I've spent a few weeks with, I notice how much more relaxed they are if it's just me shooting with a DSLR, rather than a crew).

I have noticed proper monitoring headphones add another barrier, too. But i've wondered if maybe some decent in-ears would work. Obviously they're never going to be as good as monitoring headphones, but maybe it'll be enough to hear if someone's rubbing a mic/a stick has become dislodged etc, while still being less invasive..

In what situations do you find yourself using wireless lav systems over wired, and vice versa?

For all of my personal work I use the Tascam. For broadcast work, when I'm switching hats from a director to a crew member I use the wireless lavs.

 

[puredrifting]

What are you using for your on-camera mic set up? Are you running straight into the camera, through a pre-amp, with a dr10L, etc etc?

Canon C200, C300 MKII, FS7 rentals all wear an Audio Technica AT-875r
Fujifilm XT-3 wears a Røde Video Micro

Both are ran straight into camera. Both sound adequate for scratch audio and sometimes get used for real audio when our sound mixer disappears when we land an impromptu interview with Carmen Electra. I shot pretty close to her to get the mic close and with the Audio Technica AT875s, the audio was used in the final spot. Wasn't as good as a boom or lav but it was shoot the interview right then or miss it, sound mixer was nowhere to be found so roll it!

 

[junct]

Canon C200, C300 MKII, FS7 rentals all wear an Audio Technica AT-875r
Fujifilm XT-3 wears a Røde Video Micro

Both are ran straight into camera. Both sound adequate for scratch audio and sometimes get used for real audio when our sound mixer disappears when we land an impromptu interview with Carmen Electra. I shot pretty close to her to get the mic close and with the Audio Technica AT875s, the audio was used in the final spot. Wasn't as good as a boom or lav but it was shoot the interview right then or miss it, sound mixer was nowhere to be found so roll it!

Gotcha. I have an AT875r also, but camera input is 3.5mm. Maybe a Tascam Dr10 with XLR input (the dr10L I think?) might be a pragmatic investment. But the tentacle recorders seem worth waiting for.

For all of my personal work I use the Tascam. For broadcast work, when I'm switching hats from a director to a crew member I use the wireless lavs.

Cheers for that. I think any changes to systems I make should be compatible with a wireless system (e.g. I do a little doc work with another person, where I often end up being mostly-a-sound person while she operates the camera). So if I go for another recorder, it might be something like the mixpre-3 (or cheaper tascams) where it's more ergonomic to use lashed to a camera, but more powerful to use as a stand-alone option. But it might be too much investment to justify for my purposes.

 

[puredrifting]

Gotcha. I have an AT875r also, but camera input is 3.5mm. Maybe a Tascam Dr10 with XLR input (the dr10L I think?) might be a pragmatic investment. But the tentacle recorders seem worth waiting for.



Cheers for that. I think any changes to systems I make should be compatible with a wireless system (e.g. I do a little doc work with another person, where I often end up being mostly-a-sound person while she operates the camera). So if I go for another recorder, it might be something like the mixpre-3 (or cheaper tascams) where it's more ergonomic to use lashed to a camera, but more powerful to use as a stand-alone option. But it might be too much investment to justify for my purposes.

There are no DR10 variants that I know of that have an XLR input. 3.5mm only. If you need XLR, you should buy the Deity HD-TX.

 

[junct]

There are no DR10 variants that I know of that have an XLR input. 3.5mm only. If you need XLR, you should buy the Deity HD-TX.

You're right. I thought the dr10sg had an XLR input from a cursory glance, but it's actually an inbuilt shotgun. The Deity's look interesting.

 

[Jase]

I've got 3 of these: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086779-REG/tascam_dr_10x_dr_10cx_plug_on_micro_linear.html

They work as well as the lav version.

 

[puredrifting]

I've got 3 of these: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086779-REG/tascam_dr_10x_dr_10cx_plug_on_micro_linear.html

They work as well as the lav version.

Interesting, I didn't even know this Tascam XLR variant existed, thanks Jase.

The advantage of the HD-TX Deity is that it is also a wireless transmitter to the Deity Connect receiver when NOT recording to the SD card. In every other country in the world, the HD-TX can do both record internally and transmit simultaneously but thanks to Zaxcom's U.S. patent, the HD-TXs sold here in the states can only do one or the other at a time.

 

[puredrifting]

Gotcha. I have an AT875r also, but camera input is 3.5mm. Maybe a Tascam Dr10 with XLR input (the dr10L I think?) might be a pragmatic investment. But the tentacle recorders seem worth waiting for.



Cheers for that. I think any changes to systems I make should be compatible with a wireless system (e.g. I do a little doc work with another person, where I often end up being mostly-a-sound person while she operates the camera). So if I go for another recorder, it might be something like the mixpre-3 (or cheaper tascams) where it's more ergonomic to use lashed to a camera, but more powerful to use as a stand-alone option. But it might be too much investment to justify for my purposes.

FWIW, I own the Mix-Pre 3, it's a great little recorder. But i only use it when I am a sound mixer as it's functions are deep and detailed, the exact opposite of what you should be paying attention to as a camera operator. IMHO, the Zoom F6 is the same, great tools but when shooting, you need to be paying attention to talent, director if there is one, your lighting, shot, composition, focus, your cameras battery and media consumption and NOT be messing around with pro level sound mixer/recorders. Just my .02.

 

[junct]

FWIW, I own the Mix-Pre 3, it's a great little recorder. But i only use it when I am a sound mixer as it's functions are deep and detailed, the exact opposite of what you should be paying attention to as a camera operator. IMHO, the Zoom F6 is the same, great tools but when shooting, you need to be paying attention to talent, director if there is one, your lighting, shot, composition, focus, your cameras battery and media consumption and NOT be messing around with pro level sound mixer/recorders. Just my .02.

Indeed. I get your perspective. I'd like something with a simple enough interface and good ergonomics that offers some level of control while shooting - e.g. the ability to see the levels are a bit hot and having a simple dial to adjust down - while still offering something that can approach a pro level recorder when I have the option to be more active in capturing sound.

Interesting, I didn't even know this Tascam XLR variant existed, thanks Jase.

The advantage of the HD-TX Deity is that it is also a wireless transmitter to the Deity Connect receiver when NOT recording to the SD card. In every other country in the world, the HD-TX can do both record internally and transmit simultaneously but thanks to Zaxcom's U.S. patent, the HD-TXs sold here in the states can only do one or the other at a time.

The Tascam XLR doesn't seem to capable of phantom power, unfortunately.

Handy, not being US-based Recording internally while transmitting is a handy and intuitive feature. I gather not the only transmitter that offers this feature.

 

[Jase]

No phantom power on the Tascam. I typically use them with a Rode M3. Usually for a live event with those who don't know to keep a properly placed table mic right in front of them. Unbelievable what people often do. Great mic in that situation. Even if they are off axis, signal is still typically strong enough without having to boost the gain in any big way. Not perfect but more or less acceptable.