Improving my "run and gun" audio? New wireless lav options, pre-amps (juicedlink),etc

[junct]

Improving my "run and gun" audio? New wireless lav options, pre-amps (juicedlink),etc

Hi all.

I've been doing more run and gun/corporate doco type stuff lately, and trying to do more of my own low-budget, micro-crew documentary stuff.

I've been using a Tascam Dr-40, an Audio Technica At875r and a Tascam Dr10cs with Sennheiser mke-2 EW lav mic.

I shoot with a gh4 in a cage, either on a tripod or on a pocket rig shoulder mount. Occasionally i use a monopod.

I (very awkwardly) mount the recorder and shotgun to the cage. It's pretty unwieldy.
I have it on a pistol grip so I can use the tripod for interviews and get the mic a bit closer - but it generally affects the quality of the interview responses (fairly distracting, and probably gives me too many things to focus on).

The tascam lav combo is pretty great for the super simple nature of it when running as a one-man-band. It's nearly always my primary audio.

However it's recently malfunctioned, and has gone back to the seller under warranty.

I'm thinking of upgrading to some wireless transmitters with the credit back i'll get from the seller. I know about the sticky thread on wireless systems, but there seems to have been a bit of a change in the last few years with wifi options coming onto the market. I'm wary that it'll add a layer too much of complexity for one man band stuff. But the ability to monitor while shooting would be great. I've used sennheiser g3s before, which were really handy, and nothing was difficult or went wrong on that shoot - but they do have many more potential problems.
What are the simplest, more versatile wireless options favoured by the videography and doc market these days?

If I do this, I can reduce the number of recording systems to sync in post. I need to test, but I *think* it's possible to output from the dr-40 to the gh4. Obviously this will result in some quality loss, but it might mean for many projects I can skip the syncing stage of post (or at least give me a perfect sync track).
But maybe a juicedlink pre-amp would be a better way to go if trying to simplify and improve my set up? I can't really find too much info online, but some seem to suggest that this system is as good quality as using a lower quality recorder (like the dr-40 - because it's preamps aren't great). This seems hard to believe, but i'd like it to be true hah

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So, with an opportunity to change my lav set up, i'm looking for improvements to make to my audio workflow for this kind of work - shooting with a SLR, lav and shotgun. I'm looking for suggestions on a system that makes a compromise between quality and ease of use (smaller size to mount to cages, lack of complexity, usually leading to lower quality). For productions with a reasonable budget I hire a dedicated audio recordist.

 

[Alex H.]

Hi, junct.

OMB setups like this really are the trickiest beasts. The old-school way of doing things centered around a professional camcorder that had full audio support built-in, even if the quality wasn't as good as recording to a separate audio system. Nowadays, for those not using a camcorder with XLR inputs, rigs can get a little clumsy for the OMB shooter who is trying to bolt all sorts of accessories to the cage, as you have experienced.

Handheld recorders are some of the most clumsy for this. There are some smaller recorders that can be a little more easily integrated to a camera cage or shoulder rig system. On the lower end, I'd suggest looking at the Tascam DR-60DmkII or the DR-70D. On the higher end, the Sound Devices MixPre-3 II. All are designed to be able to mount under a camera, and can also be mounted in more creative ways depending on the camera rig.

I know about the sticky thread on wireless systems, but there seems to have been a bit of a change in the last few years with wifi options coming onto the market.

Have you actually read the sticky, especially recently? I updated it a few months ago to include newer systems and to address the newer wave of 2.4GHz systems. They have a delightful simplicity since the systems automatically pair and you don't have to worry about scanning frequencies. On the downside, they can suffer from some pretty drastic latency. That's even more problematic if you're mixing them with other mics, like your shotgun.

I still use UHF systems and just haven't been convinced yet to rely on 2.4GHz systems. I've played with them, but I'm just not there yet in terms of confidence. One of my big hesitations aside from the latency issue is that several of those systems come with internal, rechargeable (read: not user-replaceable) batteries. Once the batteries die, the system is down until it's recharged. Yeah, the receivers can be powered by USB, but that's something else to bolt to your cage. And the transmitters? Maybe, but then you're adding the clumsy bulk of a USB powerbank to your talent. No, thanks. The RØDELink system has some of the lowest latency, and is AA battery powered, for what that's worth.

So, with an opportunity to change my lav set up, i'm looking for improvements to make to my audio workflow for this kind of work - shooting with a SLR, lav and shotgun. I'm looking for suggestions on a system that makes a compromise between quality and ease of use (smaller size to mount to cages, lack of complexity, usually leading to lower quality). For productions with a reasonable budget I hire a dedicated audio recordist.

Again, the two I mentioned from Tascam are inexpensive and fairly straightforward. They'll mount to your camera rig easily as well. Both have 3.5mm outputs designed specifically for feeding DSLRs and similar cameras, so you get decent reference sound to your camera with a better quality dual recording. The MixPre-3 II will definitely have a better sound quality, but it's still small and can mount under your camera. It's priced a bit higher, but operation can be as simple or as complicated as you need it to be.

The Juicedlink preamp is certainly an option as well, though the pre-amps in those still aren't going to be the best. It may cut down on bulk, but the other thing to think about with the recorders is the added benefit of really good level meters and better level controls.

 

[Imamacuser]

For tripod shots with my Frankenrig, I clamp a QR clamp to my fluid head's pan bar, and mount my audio recorder to that and send an output to my camera. In my opinion, mounting the recorder/preamp under the camera needlessly raises the rig's center of gravity. Aside from the latency, I really like my Sennheiser AVX, but you'll need spare Li-ion battery packs if you intend to run it all day long.

 

[scorsesefan]

I'm in a similar boat in that I do a lot of run n' gun work. When I use my A7III it's in a cage with a Videomic Pro running directly into the camera.

I also run with a Tascam DR-10L that I put on the primary talent. I ditched the stock mic and replaced it with the Oscar 802. I can't say enough positive things about the Tascam. I rarely if ever use my Sennheiser G3s anymore -- they are larger and more cumbersome, and monitoring is a PITA. I've never had a failure yet with my Tascam, so maybe you just had a bad unit? In any case I would suggest you give them another try...

 

[Bassman2003]

Just picked up a Rodelink newshooter and so far really like it. The ability to use the transmitter with phantom powered condensers all the way to a lav makes it very versatile for this OMB. Sound quality is good as well.

 

[Alex H.]

I don’t do a lot of OMB/run-and-gun work these days, but I have a condensed kit for the times that I do. Maybe it’s because I’m a sound mixer before anything else, but I have a compact bag with a MixPre-6 II, Sennehiser ew512 wireless for talent, and a G3 camera hop system for audio to camera. Camera records audio from the hop as well as an on-cam mic for nats. And when needed, I add my Comtek transmitter.

Of course, I do my own post on those projects and I have no problem dealing with the separate files.

 

[goodgoings]

I've run and gunned by own documentary and though it can it be done there are so many errors that can happen. If the production can be slowed down to wire people and set up a boom on a stand, then maybe it can be okay but then it's not run and gun anymore. On days when I had the fortune of having a sound recordist with a boom, the difference is night and day. Though it can be done without a dedicated sound guy, it's always better to have a person handle the sound even if the person is trained in a crash course and uses a Zoom H1.

 

[morgan_moore]

Im not a sound expert.

In the early DSLR days I bought a sound devices 702 and a Sanken CS1 and two XLR cables, one .5m long, one 3m long.

I think I get good sound.

Yep Ive got some lavs, but rarely use them - could you consider such a simple wired setup.

I was scouting ebay today and noticed that the 702 is now affordable I dont know how the specs match modern recorders, but I have deep trust for SDevices reliability.

 

[Essami]

I'm in a similar situation. I shoot a lot documentary, true run n gun stuff where I follow people during the day. I do it all alone so I need to be very mobile. At the moment I'm using a Sennheiser G3 connected to my Pocket 4K with a shotgun on top of the camera to record other people. That works well but sometimes I would like to actually have a LAV mic on two or three people. I tried the Tascam DR10's but found the synchronising to be a pain. I'm very interested in the Tentacle System Track E recorder / timecode solution. Will be buying those to see if they work when they are released.

 

[junct]

For tripod shots with my Frankenrig, I clamp a QR clamp to my fluid head's pan bar, and mount my audio recorder to that and send an output to my camera. In my opinion, mounting the recorder/preamp under the camera needlessly raises the rig's center of gravity. Aside from the latency, I really like my Sennheiser AVX, but you'll need spare Li-ion battery packs if you intend to run it all day long.

Thats a nice idea, instead of mounting to the cage. How much does the latency affect you?

OMB setups like this really are the trickiest beasts. The old-school way of doing things centered around a professional camcorder that had full audio support built-in, even if the quality wasn't as good as recording to a separate audio system. Nowadays, for those not using a camcorder with XLR inputs, rigs can get a little clumsy for the OMB shooter who is trying to bolt all sorts of accessories to the cage, as you have experienced.

Indeed, I think my next solution will be a more traditional camcorder form-factor..

Handheld recorders are some of the most clumsy for this. There are some smaller recorders that can be a little more easily integrated to a camera cage or shoulder rig system. On the lower end, I'd suggest looking at the Tascam DR-60DmkII or the DR-70D. On the higher end, the Sound Devices MixPre-3 II. All are designed to be able to mount under a camera, and can also be mounted in more creative ways depending on the camera rig.

I have considered the mixpre-3 before, I haven't actually used one before so maybe i'll hire one for the next shoot. I'm wary of adding something *reasonably* expensive that I can't necessarily utilize properly due to the multi-tasking required of a OMB shoot.

Have you actually read the sticky, especially recently? I updated it a few months ago to include newer systems and to address the newer wave of 2.4GHz systems. They have a delightful simplicity since the systems automatically pair and you don't have to worry about scanning frequencies. On the downside, they can suffer from some pretty drastic latency. That's even more problematic if you're mixing them with other mics, like your shotgun.

I've read it a few times over the last few years actually - but I hadn't checked the recent-ish update I'll have to do some reading about the new 2.4GHz systems. I've seen them recommended more and more but don't have any hands on experience or in-depth understanding of the potential latency issues. A location-recordist friend seemed to like the rodelink system.

Again, the two I mentioned from Tascam are inexpensive and fairly straightforward. They'll mount to your camera rig easily as well. Both have 3.5mm outputs designed specifically for feeding DSLRs and similar cameras, so you get decent reference sound to your camera with a better quality dual recording. The MixPre-3 II will definitely have a better sound quality, but it's still small and can mount under your camera. It's priced a bit higher, but operation can be as simple or as complicated as you need it to be.

The Juicedlink preamp is certainly an option as well, though the pre-amps in those still aren't going to be the best. It may cut down on bulk, but the other thing to think about with the recorders is the added benefit of really good level meters and better level controls.

The higher quality of the MixPre-3 appeals, as something potentially more "future-proof" and perhaps suitable enough on some of my documentary work, where I can't necessarily have a dedicated sound recordist all the time.
But, as i've found with the lav vs shotgun set up, actually being able to use something simply with minimal fuss will result in better quality - in this case, I prefer the sound from the AT875r over my lav, I theoretically prefer to have proper monitoring and the ability to adjust levels on the fly, etc. But as a OMB I can almost never get the chance to get the AT875r in an ideal position, and I'm usually doing too many things to focus closely on riding levels (which a handheld recorder is awful for, anyway).
Ultimately, for now, ergonomics and ease-of-use and versatility are the most important attributes.

With that in mind, do you have any suggestions between the Tascam and Sound Devices units?

 

[junct]

I've run and gunned by own documentary and though it can it be done there are so many errors that can happen. If the production can be slowed down to wire people and set up a boom on a stand, then maybe it can be okay but then it's not run and gun anymore. On days when I had the fortune of having a sound recordist with a boom, the difference is night and day. Though it can be done without a dedicated sound guy, it's always better to have a person handle the sound even if the person is trained in a crash course and uses a Zoom H1.

1000% disagree about sound quality. But 1) I'm not fond of asking people to work free/half rates etc when it's my own personal project. 2) I've noticed a huge difference in how comfortable subjects are when it's just me with a camera and lav vs if there's a boom running around above their head.

I don’t do a lot of OMB/run-and-gun work these days, but I have a condensed kit for the times that I do. Maybe it’s because I’m a sound mixer before anything else, but I have a compact bag with a MixPre-6 II, Sennehiser ew512 wireless for talent, and a G3 camera hop system for audio to camera. Camera records audio from the hop as well as an on-cam mic for nats. And when needed, I add my Comtek transmitter.

Of course, I do my own post on those projects and I have no problem dealing with the separate files.

To check I understand correctly, are you using the g3 to send audio from the mixpre-6 to camera?

Just picked up a Rodelink newshooter and so far really like it. The ability to use the transmitter with phantom powered condensers all the way to a lav makes it very versatile for this OMB. Sound quality is good as well.

Thanks, i'll have another look into this system.

I'm in a similar boat in that I do a lot of run n' gun work. When I use my A7III it's in a cage with a Videomic Pro running directly into the camera.

I also run with a Tascam DR-10L that I put on the primary talent. I ditched the stock mic and replaced it with the Oscar 802. I can't say enough positive things about the Tascam. I rarely if ever use my Sennheiser G3s anymore -- they are larger and more cumbersome, and monitoring is a PITA. I've never had a failure yet with my Tascam, so maybe you just had a bad unit? In any case I would suggest you give them another try...

Oh I like the Tascam a lot. I hadn't really used lavs a lot before, and when I had I'd had issues with scanning for frequencies, placement techniques with difficult clothing, and generally not sounding great compared to a good boom operator (of course, this was when i was shooting more drama where a dedicated location sound recordist and boom op were always available).
The tascam unit was really a revelation, which isn't something I feel about any other equipment. It became the workhorse of my one man band audio.

I can replace it, but now I've had my faith restored in the utility of lavs, I am trying to make my audio system easier to use and higher quality. I used the sennheiser g2s on a shoot recently, they were easy enough to use. Bulkier, but not really a problem? I was happy with them too (my technique with micing subject has improved), but as mentioned I'd previously had negative experiences with wireless systems. Monitoring properly is a pain, but I'd like to be able to hear if there's any new clothing noises/whatever coming into the recording - and also to be sure that the recorder hasn't stopped mid-interview (which didn't happen with the tascam, but could happen in a subjects pocket or with battery failure).

 

[Noiz2]

I would also put the Zoom F4 in the mix. It comes with an attachment plate to mount it to the camera and is about 1/2 way (price wise) between the Tasams and the Sound Device units.
You will help out your ulcers if you can monitor the sound.

If the 2.4gHz stuff will work for your situation it is very easy to use. As always that is a two edged sword. It's easy because you don't have much about it you can control, so if it works great if it doesn't there is not a lot you can do. For most people in most situations it seems to work. Cheap ones (and maybe some of the pricier?) have two issues with latency. The first is just the lag time. I have a couple of "disposable" ones I picked up for $10 a set and the base lag time is around 27 msec, which is huge for sound. The second issue with this cheapo set is that the lag is not constant, it varies with distance. So for a sit down no problem but if your subject is walking and talking you could end up with various lags. Big PITA. I'm using them for things where it doesn't matter or the possibility of them getting destroyed offsets the amount of post work.

 

[junct]

Im not a sound expert.

In the early DSLR days I bought a sound devices 702 and a Sanken CS1 and two XLR cables, one .5m long, one 3m long.

I think I get good sound.

Yep Ive got some lavs, but rarely use them - could you consider such a simple wired setup.

I was scouting ebay today and noticed that the 702 is now affordable I dont know how the specs match modern recorders, but I have deep trust for SDevices reliability.

I've used the 702 before, and it's a good piece of equipment. But I can't imagine easily being able to wrangle it while recording as a OMB, and actually making good use of it's capabilities?

I like the simple wired lav set up with the Tasam Dr10 for it's simplicity. I get better sound with the lav compared to a generally better sounding shotgun mic, simply because as a OMB I can get the lav into better positions. But for shoots with more movement, and the need to monitor audio, a wireless feed back to a simple recorder would help a lot.

 

[junct]

I would also put the Zoom F4 in the mix. It comes with an attachment plate to mount it to the camera and is about 1/2 way (price wise) between the Tasams and the Sound Device units.
You will help out your ulcers if you can monitor the sound.

If the 2.4gHz stuff will work for your situation it is very easy to use. As always that is a two edged sword. It's easy because you don't have much about it you can control, so if it works great if it doesn't there is not a lot you can do. For most people in most situations it seems to work. Cheap ones (and maybe some of the pricier?) have two issues with latency. The first is just the lag time. I have a couple of "disposable" ones I picked up for $10 a set and the base lag time is around 27 msec, which is huge for sound. The second issue with this cheapo set is that the lag is not constant, it varies with distance. So for a sit down no problem but if your subject is walking and talking you could end up with various lags. Big PITA. I'm using them for things where it doesn't matter or the possibility of them getting destroyed offsets the amount of post work.

I have heard good things about the zoom f4. A sound friend complained that the noise floor of the preamps was unacceptably high. I'm not sure how it compares to the the cheaper tascams. He likes the sound devices mixpre-3 as a "budget" solution (but he's an audio guy by trade and by passion, so ).

I clearly need to read more about the 2.4ghz systems. Even expensive systems seem to have latency issues. How do people make them viable? That seems like such a fatal flaw for something that seems to be becoming a new standard option.

 

[Alex H.]

With that in mind, do you have any suggestions between the Tascam and Sound Devices units?

Sure. Are you absolutely budget-constrained? The Tascam will do.

Are you even considering spending the money on the MixPre-3 II? It’ll blow the Tascam out of the water in terms of quality, and isn’t that difficult to learn to use.

 

[junct]

Sure. Are you absolutely budget-constrained? The Tascam will do.

Are you even considering spending the money on the MixPre-3 II? It’ll blow the Tascam out of the water in terms of quality, and isn’t that difficult to learn to use.

Thanks. At this point, I'd prefer to do a few more gigs with the handheld recorder setup and save some more money if the quality difference is significant. I'm becoming more willing to spend decents amount of money if I can feasibly get several years out of it and use it on "bigger" projects.

 

[NorBro]

Didn't read through this entire thread as the audio pros here are always great (so not sure if anyone mentioned this), but just wanted to add that I never enjoyed audio more in life then after purchasing a F6 and recording 32-bit float.

It's a pastime of mine recovering blown audio or key-framing difficult dialogue.

I can tell you about 200 amazing camera improvements that happened in the last decade, but not sure any of them are as significant as this audio breakthrough from last year.

 

[Essami]

Didn't read through this entire thread as the audio pros here are always great (so not sure if anyone mentioned this), but just wanted to add that I never enjoyed audio more in life then after purchasing a F6 and recording 32-bit float.

It's a pastime of mine recovering blown audio or key-framing difficult dialogue.

I can tell you about 200 amazing camera improvements that happened in the last decade, but not sure any of them are as significant as this audio breakthrough from last year.

The Tentacle System Track E recorder LAV's which I meantioned will record in 32-bit float as well. I also had the F6 on one job and it's a very good recorder, if I wanted a separate recorder that's the one I would get.

 

[puredrifting]

I'm using the Tascam DR10Ls until the Tentacle releases. For me, OMB doc shooting, worrying about wireless, my Mix Pre3, bag, batteries, that is just too much gak and gear to deal with as I need to be a good interviewer/producer and cinematographer too. Syncing multiple subjects is SUPER easy in FCP X, not sure why anyone couldn't make that all work but perhaps Premiere and Resolve don't sync audio as well? Doing a shoot this weekend with one of our main talents running a meeting. Will have a Tascam DR10L on her, two camera mics on two cameras and we get what we get. We don't have budget or resources to have a sound mixer. I could be the dedicated sound mixer myself, but not while doing camera, interviewing, etc. I've been running the Tascams now for a year and half on this project. So far, bullet proof, they've been amazingly good and reliable and we always get at least usable and sometimes really great sound. The Tentacles, when they hit, will be a timecode version of the DR10L on steroids with the 32 bit.

Wireless is fine for certain situations. But OMB/run & gun is not one of them as far as I'm concerned, unless you have a sound mixer on crew. Too many gotchas, variables, UHF/2.4Ghz issues. I have two of the Røde wireless, they are great and we have the Deity Connect which is also good. So far, no problems with the Deity battery life, although that could be a factor if you are shooting 12-14 hours straight, but we rarely do, especially with wireless. I rent the Lectros, they are the best but at $6k per pair, they should be the best.

 

[Alex H.]

To check I understand correctly, are you using the g3 to send audio from the mixpre-6 to camera?

Missed this post earlier.

Yes, I use a G3 system to send audio from MixPre-6 II to the camera.