Implications of having affordable HD production?

[David G. Smith]

Sorry for being so opinionated in this thread... I think the democratization of media started in the early eighties with desktop publishing. Today, there are just more kinds of media from television to the internet. Heard of podcasting, yet?

Wow, Brian, who pissed in your Wheaties this morning?

Yeah, I've heard of poscasting, just did not think that it was all that relavant on a board dedicated to the disscussing to digital VIDEO and sure as **** did not think that it has anything to do with the original question posted.

As for your assertion that the only way to learn filmmaking is by going to a California or New York film school is crazy.

 

[mmm]

Affordable HD simply removes the first hurdle from infront of indie filmakers.

Now guys, don't get too excited, look at all those other hurdles behind the one that just fell. Those talent and experience hurdles are particularly high!

I love the old sport analogy... someone care to add the traditional car analogy now?

 

[Nathyn]

I know several Columbia grads. All very nice folks. None of them found film work in Chicago, tho... Anyways, congrats to you for getting your degree. That's a big undertaking and a career accomplishment. :thumbup:

Film work in Chicago? You're joking right? Film work is in LA, Chicago is the hub of weddings, commercials and indie video productions. There is work here but you have to make it. And trust me not getting work doesn't mean you're not good, it means some one else was better or knew someone you didn't.

Sorry for being so opinionated in this thread... I think the democratization of media started in the early eighties with desktop publishing. Today, there are just more kinds of media from television to the internet. Heard of podcasting, yet?

Too true. DT Publishing was all the rage in the late eighties and nineties, now it's desktop music came in (I know several people who have music studios consisting basically a Mac, tons of music software and a midi controler). And now desk top movies. But again if you don't have the money, it's still going to be the big guys on top. You just have somewhat of a chance now.

-Nate

 

[RogerandOut]

I wonder how much attention the major studios are paying to this new technology?

It just seems so we are on the verge of seeing so many changes in the way media is created and distributed. If I'm not mistaken, there were 25k copies of this indie purchased via the 'net.
www.reversalthemovie.com

And when there is broadband saturation and HD screen saturation, can't we then, as the media creators manage our own distribution, and customer relations, finances, etc.?

It seems like there wouldn't be any 'middle man' then.

 

[RogerandOut]

Oh, I forgot to mention UT-Austin has a good, maybe a very good film program.

So, no, film education is not only to be had on the coasts.

 

[Barry_Green]

I wonder how much attention the major studios are paying to this new technology?

Not much, I'd guess. They don't really care about Super16, they never cared about DV or DVCAM, and they only rarely rarely rarely shoot on a CineAlta.

When you're spending $80 million to make a movie (which is about the average budget nowadays), it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to skimp on the camera budget. The overall cost of the film and camera is like 1/2 of 1% of the total budget -- not enough to worry about, certainly not enough to risk lowering the final quality over. Hollywood seems to believe that 35mm is enough -- they don't go to the extra expense of 70mm anymore, but they also don't shoot S16. For video, the 1080/24P of the CineAlta is the first video format that Hollywood thinks is actually good enough that they will consider using it as an alternative to film. I don't think the HVX/XLH1/HD100 will have any noticeable impact on the major motion picture industry.

It just seems so we are on the verge of seeing so many changes in the way media is created and distributed. If I'm not mistaken, there were 25k copies of this indie purchased via the 'net.
www.reversalthemovie.com

Now, see, THERE'S the revolution. The revolution isn't in cameras, it's in the internet. The Internet is giving indies access to audiences and a market, something that the major distributors have had a complete lock on. DV was not the revolution, and HDV will not be the revolution, and the HVX will not be the revolution. The revolution is in the ability to get your product out there. Forget the theaters -- you'll never get in a theater without a $20 million marketing budget, and you're not going to get a $20 million marketing budget with a movie made on a $5,000 camera. But the internet lets you bypass that and find your own audience.

The internet and DVDs -- that's where the real revolution is taking place.

And when there is broadband saturation and HD screen saturation, can't we then, as the media creators manage our own distribution, and customer relations, finances, etc.?

If you ever want a shot at making your money back, then yes, you'll have to do all this. And the internet makes it possible to reach a potential worldwide audience, at extremely low cost -- something that used to require a $20m marketing budget!

It seems like there wouldn't be any 'middle man' then.

If you're willing to devote yourself full-time to marketing your picture, then yes you can eliminate the middleman (who, by the way, is the guy saying "no" to the indie filmmakers) and actually start producing some revenue.

But then, marketing is a whole different discipline and a full-time job in and of itself...

 

[Drew599]

Thisiswells, I got my experience back in high school at a local two screen theater. I didn't have anyone within the industry so I had to do everything myself. I was lucky that the people in the projection department wanted to help me out...most of them at least. I did have people try and make it so I couldn't work there by calling the union and telling them about me before I was union. But a lot of the things you were listing off are things you can learn on the job. All you would need to do is hunt down the people you want to work with and ask them. If they won't show you find someone else. There are always people looking for assisstants. Basically if you show them that your a hard worker and know what your talking about then you'll be good on most fronts.

Also I've said it before in another thread much like this one is turning into, a piece of paper from some school means nothing to me.

Rogerandout, I know the people in the projection department want to see that camera really bad. They want me to bring in mine, when I get it, so they can project it on the 2K digital projector. That should look sweet.

 

[David G. Smith]

I wonder how much attention the major studios are paying to this new technology?

It just seems so we are on the verge of seeing so many changes in the way media is created and distributed. If I'm not mistaken, there were 25k copies of this indie purchased via the 'net.
www.reversalthemovie.com

And when there is broadband saturation and HD screen saturation, can't we then, as the media creators manage our own distribution, and customer relations, finances, etc.?

It seems like there wouldn't be any 'middle man' then.

I disagree with Barry, in a way. The Majors are paying alot of attention to the new technology. However, from their point of view, the issue is piracy. The Majors are a millstone around the neck of new technology, anyone remeber the "Betamax decision"? They do not consider the issue of competition, which, in reality there isn't any.

We have to realize that any means of distribution that develops is going to be subject to the economies of scale, which the media giants with their deep pockets are going to always have an advantage in.

Does that mean we have to give up? No f**king way!!! Lets all keep up the good fight!!!.

 

[thisiswells]

Give up what? I don't live my life waiting to be discovered by some amphibious industry player. I don't work against them, either. I'm not trying to "beat them." Honestly, I don't even understand this whole indie movie fascination. It's like glorified home videos. I always thought people here had smallish video companies or did freelance work like me... Are you guys really trying to break-in to the feature film industry? Sheesh. Where have I been all year?! Lol. (not trying to be condescending.. it just never occured to me..)

 

[braw]

Then why are you advocating that folks need to go to film school or they won't learn anything? Especially if all you expect them to do is run a videography company. You certainly don't need a film degree to do that.

 

[Drew599]

Very, very good point braw.

 

[stabwound]

>>..Honestly, I don't even understand this whole indie movie fascination. It's like glorified home videos. I always thought people here had smallish video companies or did freelance work like me... Are you guys really trying to break-in to the feature film industry? <<

If all you're gonna do are weddings and birthday parties, any camcorder will do.

IMHO, the "film-look" capabilities of the HVX will help spearhead an indie movie revolution.

I saw the same phenomenon in the Comic Book industry over 20 years ago. At that time, the only way you could work in the comics industry was if you were contracted with the Big Corporations... Marvel, DC etcetera as hired help... your ideas, your artwork and stories are no longer yours. Wanna create superhero characters other than Spiderman and Superman? You are out of luck.

Sure you could create your own comicbook, but without proper distribution, it was impossible to survive.

Then something happened. The normal distribution network was bypassed with new "ALTERNATIVE" distribution companies (Bud Plant, Diamond, Seagate etc) who actively promote product from creators of ALTERNATIVE (also known as INDEPENDENT) comics.

Suddenly, a whole new generation of artists and writers came to the forefront. Cerebus the Aardvark, the Rocketeer, Robert Crumb etc suddenly changed the industry. Most started off as newsprint (read cheap budget), and as the dough rolled in they went color.

Creators got to own their work and reap rewards consumerate with their talent. Tod MacFarlane create SPAWN which made zillions for him, as well as toys and a movie to boot.

Think of how many comic book/graphic novels were made into movies lately.... (Sin City, Road to Perdition). They all started off as independent comic books.

I see a similiar paralell beginning now. A whole new generation of filmmakers will emerge in the next ten years, just as a slew of comic book creators did.

New distribution systems will pop up to accomodate independent video production (Blockbusters, Troma etc).

Not all independent movies will succeed, ofcourse... just as a lot of independent comic book titles fell by the wayside. And there will be a lot of crap flooding the market. But if you're any good, you will get noticed.

And yeah, I'm gonna make a feature film. But my expectations are modest. And even the only success I get is my product hitting the $3.99 bin at Walmart's or just the shelves at Blockbuster's, I've got it made.

Wanna be in the forefront of a revolution?

 

[Drew599]

Those were some good words there stabwound.

Believe it or not the studios have thought this through with the whole distribution of digital cinema and how they can stay involved. They are going to do this by paying for the new equipment in the theaters. So if they own the equipment then they can control what will be shown.

I have seen the new Dolby media box that they are more than likely going to be using for this whole thing and its something else. I would love to see someone trying to get into this thing. Its very "Mission Impossible" as in will self-destruct if messed with.

But that's not to be said that it cannot be bypassed. So if you brought in your own play back for your film then you could more than likely play it on the theater's projector. Of course it could have a lock out if any connection between the media and the projector is lost. I only know a little from what I've seen and what I've been told. But what I do know is that there is always a way around whatever problem you run into.

I believe this camera has the potential to do great things, from what I've read here, if in the right hands.

 

[RogerandOut]

'I see a similiar paralell beginning now. A whole new generation of filmmakers will emerge in the next ten years, just as a slew of comic book creators did.

New distribution systems will pop up to accomodate independent video production (Blockbusters, Troma etc).

Not all independent movies will succeed, of course... just as a lot of independent comic book titles fell by the wayside. And there will be a lot of crap flooding the market. But if you're any good, you will get noticed.

And yeah, I'm gonna make a feature film. But my expectations are modest. And even the only success I get is my product hitting the $3.99 bin at Walmart's or just the shelves at Blockbuster's, I've got it made.'

Now *that* is what I'm talking about. The studios produce a constant flow of crappy movies, so why can't everyone who can afford an HVX and Final Cut Pro HD type system now participate in that marketplace?

As you stated, they probably will begin to do just that. We won't be making Gladiator, but I bet some of us will make a successful zombie movie, a successful family movie, a successful kids movie. And a movie doesn't have to be a blockbuster to be a success. The other aspect is that the industry has been dominated by males, and greater access means more females making their own movies, and making their own characters.

 

[goldyprog]

you'll never get in a theater without a $20 million marketing budget, and you're not going to get a $20 million marketing budget with a movie made on a $5,000 camera.

Why do you think this is so?

 

[Nathyn]

Now, see, THERE'S the revolution. The revolution isn't in cameras, it's in the internet. The Internet is giving indies access to audiences and a market, something that the major distributors have had a complete lock on. DV was not the revolution, and HDV will not be the revolution, and the HVX will not be the revolution. The revolution is in the ability to get your product out there.

Barry how dare you speaketh the truth of said revolution!

Forget the theaters -- you'll never get in a theater without a $20 million marketing budget, and you're not going to get a $20 million marketing budget with a movie made on a $5,000 camera.

I wouldn't say that. There are ways but they're not easy and they're somewhat expensive if you don't have a budget already.

-Nate

 

[Barry_Green]

Why do you think this is so?

Because the reality is that if someone's going to spend $20,000,000 to market your movie, they're going to have to believe thoroughly that they are going to get that money back. If you shot your movie on a $5,000 camera, it's very, very, very unlikely that you have any "bankable" elements: i.e., a story from a John Grisham novel, an Academy-award-winning director, a "name" actor, etc...

Look at "November" -- shot on a $3500 camera, with a medium budget ($300,000 or so) and a recognizable lead actor (TV star Courtney Cox Arquette). It got practically zero marketing, it was rolled out in theaters city by city which usually means they only spent enough to make a couple of prints... there was no advertising, no television, no support at all. They didn't spend anything to market that film. They wouldn't put the money into it because they couldn't get their money out of it. Probably the only reason it got any release at all is because of the rabid fervor among DV shooters and DVXUsers clamoring to see it. I know that at the screening I went to, there were five of us in the whole theater, and we were a group, and we were only there because it was shot on the DVX. If we hadn't been following the "November" saga here on the forum I wouldn't ever have heard about the film or even known it was playing.

Sometimes putting one of these little films in the theater works -- sometimes you'll get a "Spellbound" or a "Supersize Me". But considering there's probably 4,000 indie DV films being made every year, and that you hear about maybe two or three getting in theaters, it's pretty obvious that the odds are 99.99999% that nobody is going to spend $20,000,000 to market one of these micro-budget films. And if you have a budget, you don't shoot on a $5,000 camera -- unless you're InDigEnt.

That's not to say you can't make your money back on these small films, and even do very well, but it is to say: don't expect to get theatrical distribution. It costs an average of $20m to launch a film in America -- and nobody's going to spend that kind of cash unless you have Johnny Depp or Tom Cruise or some other ultimately bankable element in the picture.

 

[sonisfear]

There are many people like myself that have the gift but the gear ceiling made dreams impossible. Now the visual market is more of an even playing field.

I agree HD-gear at this price is to me a little crazy. The broadcasters forced this.
The high end guys weren't buying into HD so the manufactures had to GIVE it to us (indie).

As far as school is concerned, I use to sell pro audio and keyboards in a music store. Many young producers would ask me what school they should go to for audio production. I would list the good ones but then inform them that in my humble opinion take that $10K-$20k loan and buy gear, read books and do free work for people. (I swear I wasn't on commision.)

Once you have the gear you can learn and develop your own style like I am. Once the learning curve is over you still own the gear to generate money and have demos to use as a portfolio. And best of all you never have to share...

I think we might just see a wave of spike lees and high school movie directors hitting the screens with innovative fresh ideas with HD power this cheap.

 

[braw]

My gut says to side with Barry on this one. I think the delivery of movies is changing like music did through the internet. Unfortunately, the bandwidth required is limited right now so Hollywood has an advantage. As soon as we can just get full length DVD's downloaded in a few hours at best, HD will be taking over and it will be some time before burnable discs will be affordable for home studio indies.

I think the best bet is local self promotion, internet promotion, and to get film fest cred. I think if you actually make a good film, and get some good promotion, sell a few DVD's yourself, you could break even on small budget films. Nowhere near a theatrical release, but consider selling a few hundred or a thousand and those shoestring features can be paid off.

There are companies that I have worked for that pay no mind to theatrical at all. They shoot absolute crap for $100,000 - $300,000 with prestruck deals with Blockbuster, Hollywood video, and now Netflix. All they have to do is get it on shelves and they make a profit. No advertising necessary. People will pick it up as a chance or experimental rental and hate it, but they still paid for it.

I think if you get stuck in tradition or the "machine" you are fighting a loosing battle. If you don’t already have a deal before you shoot, plan on being your own promotions and distribution company. Be smart, try avenues that are non traditional. Get a name and number to a rental house and front your way in there. If you have any aspiration, you better be at the very least one of the three.

A - a talented filmmaker, or slick business man.

B - unwaveringly devoted to peddling you film through any outlet possible

C - resign yourself to it being a fun and expensive hobby

Although not mathematically impossible, the chances of a home brew sub $100,000 independent film being picked up for theatrical release are so low I wouldn’t recommend counting on any aspect of that while you shoot.

 

[pywl]

Because the reality is that if someone's going to spend $20,000,000 to market your movie, they're going to have to believe thoroughly that they are going to get that money back. If you shot your movie on a $5,000 camera, it's very, very, very unlikely that you have any "bankable" elements: i.e., a story from a John Grisham novel, an Academy-award-winning director, a "name" actor, etc...

I agree with Barry that the likely hood of getting your Movies into the big screen is very slim (not impossible, but very very slim.) If your just looking to make a great profit on your movie, then DVD sales and rental is were you should be shooting for in the first place. "November" the movie Barry was referring to cost around $300k to make and only made $185k in the theater, but ill guarantee you that it made A LOT more on the DVD sales and rental (still looking for the exact figure (someone plug them in if you find them)). I dont think that everyone should be looking at the fact of what kinda impact we are going to have on Major Studio's dealing with theater releases, because it will be about 0! Now where the studios will sit up and start to take notice is when the "revolution" as everyone calls it, hits the internet full force and independent movie makers start to make a foothold and substantial profit.