Implications of having affordable HD production?

[RogerandOut]

I went to the Resfest HVX-200 presentation and the 1080i footage looked great, rich color, loads of detail, very clear on the big screen at the Egyptian.

If the progressive footage looks even better, I doubt if the 'average' viewer in a movie theater would not notice it is not 35mm film.

I have seen XL-1, PD-150, and betacamSP footage projected on large screens in theaters, and what I saw from the HVX200 blew them away.

When I saw 28 Days Later, I did not hear a single person in the theater commenting that the images looked like they originated on mini-dv.

So if the HVX200 delivers, which it probably will, how does this advancement change indie productions?

I mean for about 15k, maybe a little more, one could have a production capacity (including editing, and a standalone audio recorder with good mics)
capable of creating media that is of a high quality perhaps even rivaling 35mm film, and without the cost of film stock and processing.

Anyone have any ideas of how much cheaper it would be with an HVX200 and Final Cut HD, and maybe a Fostex field recorder to make a good-looking feature with a quality sound track?

I realize there are many variables, but still, it must be far cheaper. I can't help but wonder if this advancement is going to potentially send a shock wave through the industry.

For example, with a small portable affordable production system, is there any reason to live in LA anymore with high rents, huge traffic and air pollution. I had heard on NPR a commentary from a script writer he moved to Minneapolis for a better quality of life, and he was predicting others would follow, and the decentralization of movie-making. ( I realize it has always happened outside of LA, but LA has been sort of the
primary media factory )

 

[Stevet]

Thanks for the update!

Thanks for the update!

Tried calling EVS this mornig to place order. Not open... bummer...

I will call Monday morning!

Thanks for the report! This is what I wanted to hear.
I like what i've seen with HDV, but most of what I like is when the camera
is not moving. When there is motion , the image can go soft. DVCPRO-HD
will give us a solid image.

The clincher was hearing that the noise level was extremely good!

Planning on buying one first round, than ordering another in the Spring.

Steve

 

[NoahK]

With the HVX and good audio you'll have the means- but you still need good lighting, production design, makeup, acting, script, etc to make a film an audience will want to watch. Little harder to make that happen out in the country- though not impossible.

Noah

 

[Nathyn]

I mean for about 15k, maybe a little more, one could have a production capacity (including editing, and a standalone audio recorder with good mics)
capable of creating media that is of a high quality perhaps even rivaling 35mm film, and without the cost of film stock and processing.

Yes, that's the whole point. It started with DV now cheap HD.

I realize there are many variables, but still, it must be far cheaper. I can't help but wonder if this advancement is going to potentially send a shock wave through the industry.

Not really. There's always new technology. The only people who it will help immediately is the smaller guy with money to afford the new tech (meaning you still need to buy $12,000 worth of stuff). But that's better than $100,000 worth of stuff. But if you have the money and you're first out the gate then you're on.

-Nate

 

[doondoon]

You already saw HVX footage at Resfest in Los Angeles at the Egyptian? I thought that was happening on Sunday @ noon?

 

[thisiswells]

how does this advancement change indie productions?

They had better make more big screens for people to enjoy indie productions. Otherwise, there isn't really any benefit at all considering the forseeable future of the home video market...

I mean for about 15k, maybe a little more, one could have a production capacity (including editing, and a standalone audio recorder with good mics)
capable of creating media that is of a high quality perhaps even rivaling 35mm film, and without the cost of film stock and processing.

Lol. For a few thousand bucks I could have a mega pixel whiz bang digital stills camera, but that doesn't make me an award winning photojournalist, now does it?

...the decentralization of movie-making. ( I realize it has always happened outside of LA, but LA has been sort of the primary media factory )

Tools do not make films or highways or any product. People make products. It's important to remember the primary ingredient to learning a trade: education. There aren't really good film programs outside of California and New York. And, please, don't try and persuade me you can become great from reading internet forums all day! I'll tell you that's not the case!

 

[redindian]

I mean for about 15k, maybe a little more, one could have a production capacity (including editing, and a standalone audio recorder with good mics)
capable of creating media that is of a high quality perhaps even rivaling 35mm film, and without the cost of film stock and processing.

can you give a break-up of the 15K? That is exactly about my modest budget to have a mini setup at home [like Troublemaker Studios ]

HVX $6000
Firestore $2000
G35/m35 $1000

how else would u spend the rest 5-6k


thanks

 

[RogerandOut]

What would you use for editing? You may also need a good tripod, a mini-boom and other supporting equipment.

 

[RogerandOut]

'They had better make more big screens for people to enjoy indie productions. Otherwise, there isn't really any benefit at all considering the forseeable future of the home video market...'

Digital theaters?

Lol. For a few thousand bucks I could have a mega pixel whiz bang digital stills camera, but that doesn't make me an award winning photojournalist, now does it?

I didn't say that, and there are plenty of 35mm films that are mediocre that get shown in theaters and go to DVD for distribution.

Tools do not make films or highways or any product. People make products. It's important to remember the primary ingredient to learning a trade: education.

I don't know about that. There are plenty of people who go to film school and don't work in the media industry.

There aren't really good film programs outside of California and New York.

There are decent programs at Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, Wisconsin-Madison, U of Central Florida, Southern Illinois U., Northwestern, and other places.

And, please, don't try and persuade me you can become great from reading internet forums all day! I'll tell you that's not the case![/QUOTE]

I don't recall anyone saying that.

 

[RogerandOut]

Yes, Sunday at noon for a comparison of HVX and HVD footage. But Friday at 4 was just the HVX presentation by Jan.

 

[RogerandOut]

With the HVX and good audio you'll have the means- but you still need good lighting, production design, makeup, acting, script, etc to make a film an audience will want to watch. Little harder to make that happen out in the country- though not impossible.

Noah

Yes, of course. No point in shooting without a good script.

But the production costs being much lower provides access to directors who will make different decisions than the standard Hollywood fare. Many actors in H-wood are not particularly good at acting...they are good-looking or 'telegenic' but perhaps not much else.

So I do think there are some far-reaching implications for having affordable HD technology available to 'regular people'.

 

[thisiswells]

There are plenty of people who go to film school and don't work in the media industry.

Well, I see that as a different issue altogether.. That is an issue of there not being enough jobs in the industry to support the workforce. Let me ask this. If someone doesn't go to school, where do they learn? Who will teach them?

 

[Drew599]

You learn on the job. I've learned more than I would have at a film school just by working at the studios. Of course, I get to see way more of the product than most people because they have to go through me to see their stuff on the big screen.

Also you could learn by going out and making short films. That's what they have you doing at most film schools anyway...at least the good ones.

Believe it or not people can make amazing films and never had gone to film school. Stanley Kubrick didn't go to film school and he left a mark on the industry that won't be forgotten. I'm sure there are plenty of others also. To say that there's only one way to do something is just narrow minded. School is good for some people and for others its a complete waste of time.

 

[taubkin]

I think the HVX only seals the phenomenon that has been happening in two fronts: With prosumer video being closer and closer to broadcast, and broadcast being closer and closer to film.

So now everybody have the resources to put up an award winning film. And what happened is that we now see a ton of relly bad films. This is not new, and I don't feel I'm a genius for bringing this up, this has been happening for about 10 years and is like the questions Jan is answering about the HVX. Always the same questiosn but by different people.

What is happening that is a direct implication is that there are a lot of "amateurish looking" films, between in the bunch that are actually pretty good, especially documentary, that really broke this "amateur/professional looking barrier", and conveys today the most important language advancements in film. So now film aesthetics is much more tolerant to ultra realistic chioces, such as handheld (that is actually an older phenomenon), flares, natural lighting, jumping the line and etc...

That and MTV's ultra stylism, we get to a point where we are transforming every realistic "deffect" and stylizing the hell out of it (City of God is a very good example).

Supeproductions will be superproductions, and indies, will be indies, still for some time to come... In 10 years from now, we'll all be ptching our DVCPro-HD films and the execs will be thinkng - oh gosh, another boy with another DVCProHD film, what a waste of time... But the main reason is that what is most expensive in a superproduction is labor. Only getting Julia Roberts to be in your film will cost you 30 million. Of course if she were to sign with you, you would automatically find an investor, and actually guarantee a minimum of box office... But still 30 million.

I don't think the HVX will change a thing in the industry, except it will be used to shoot one or two really good indie films (I hope more, it's a figure of speech), that would look much better than if they were shot with the DVX...

Cheers!

 

[braw]

Let me ask this. If someone doesn't go to school, where do they learn? Who will teach them?

You make it sound as if being self taught is not an option! I understand school helps if you are absolutely green, but it is in fact possible to never attend any school and work professionally.

If you are stupid and know nothing, you go nowhere. School is paid fake experience plain and simple. It's a forced portfolio and credibility that increases the chance to get your foot in the door and that's all...especially with an art related field.

What people look at is what you can do, and what you have done. If you dink around, read some books, and talk to folks that do know, you can put together a great demo reel (if you're actually good) that will also get your foot in the door.

I took 1 class at a trade school for makeup effects and realized they were stealing my money. None of the teachers had actually worked in the field for years. That's why they're teaching. So I didn't go back found my own jobs and worked professionally without any problems minus lack of work in general (damn CGI).

After a while, I was told to just not include the "certificate of completion" from the school because it cheapened my resume. And I'll be darned if I wasn't paid more and treated a little more credibly when all I showed them was relevant work experience.

I know this deviates from what you're saying especially on the career, but same thing happened to a friend who went to USC. You pay a ton for technical knowledge only. You just can't teach talent, just technique, and that same information CAN be obtained without school. It just takes more effort.

 

[Nathyn]

There aren't really good film programs outside of California and New York.

Wrong my friend. Three words: Columbia College Chicago (you know, those guys who started Columbia College LA).

An excellent, real world film program. You can get started using the equipment as soon as you take your first film class. When I graduated from there DV was just starting and the web was just getting big, now CCC is all on top of it. They're up to date, teach old school editing (yes, with the razor), digital editing, and everything else from shooting to directing to acting and everything inbetween needed to learn about film. I would love to take a Comp and Optics class today. I bet it's all digital. I loved that place.

-Nate

 

[David G. Smith]

I think that the HVX is a next step up the democratization of media that started with DV. I do not think that it will usher in a new nirvana of independent film production. For that to happen needs major changes in the way that movies are distributed, which is almost totally under the control of the media multi-nationals.
It is still very hard to make a good movie.

That being said, I do think that the HVX will be a very influential tool. The combination of low cost quality combined with the IT workflow, will, IMO, change the way lot of people think about how they work. At least I hope so.

I am optimistic though, I do think that there will be some very cool movies made with the HVX and I look forward to seeing them.

 

[thisiswells]

You learn on the job. I've learned more than I would have at a film school just by working at the studios. Of course, I get to see way more of the product than most people because they have to go through me to see their stuff on the big screen.

I realize this is a discussion for another thread entirely, but where do you learn to load a camera. Or, how can you tell when the camera has lost the loop? Where do you learn the troubleshooting path when your 1K keeps popping a 15-amp breaker? What do you do? Where do you learn the established principals of storytelling and composition? Do you just acquire this information over time? From where? What about school simply as a credential? That's desireable, isn't it?

All I'm saying is school is a place where necessary information is provided at a reasonable pace. Going out and doing it is all well and good, but there are a lot of mistakes that could be avoided with good preparation. School provides a safe environment to try new things with peers who are also trying new things. Of course there is the testing element to school, but that's a good thing, isn't it? How else can we determine our progress or competancy in a subject field? On the job "training" makes sense at a certain level, but this assumes you have core competancies in key areas. Where do you learn the basics? I'm asking, where did you learn the basics?

 

[thisiswells]

Wrong my friend. Three words: Columbia College Chicago
An excellent, real world film program.

I know several Columbia grads. All very nice folks. None of them found film work in Chicago, tho... Anyways, congrats to you for getting your degree. That's a big undertaking and a career accomplishment. :thumbup:

 

[thisiswells]

I think that the HVX is a next step up the democratization of media that started with DV.

Sorry for being so opinionated in this thread... I think the democratization of media started in the early eighties with desktop publishing. Today, there are just more kinds of media from television to the internet. Heard of podcasting, yet?