Image Noise

C

craigsbrain

Member
I do not seem to be able pull high gain images as clean as the following out of my camera:

http://www.vimeo.com/1854379

In fact even some of my medium light shots @ 0dB or +6dB seem excessively noisy...

I have read several posts about image noise problems on this camera but all the replies seem to suggest tweaking scene file or simply disagree as to the OPs assessment of the image - nothing suggesting the camera is faulty so....

Has anyone had to actually have their HMC fixed or replaced due to image noise problems in the HMC?

Is there a bonafide image noise problem occurring in some of the HMCs?

Are the factory Scene Files inherently poor and thus the HMC must be tweaked before a quality image can be obtained?

thanks in advance

Craig
 
"Are the factory Scene Files inherently poor and thus the HMC must be tweaked before a quality image can be obtained?"

I would say yes for me.
I had to tweak scene file 1 to get images I was happy with however I have read many people talking about noise but I have not heard or seen anything as far as a "known" issues from Panasonic.
 
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For being +12db that doesn't look too bad, But then again vimeo softens it, so maybe you can post the .MTS file?
 
ryan, I believe he's using that link as an example of what he can't seem to get.

I agree that the stock scene files aren't the greatest. But you should be yielding decent results with them anyway. Make sure DRS is off. This will cause your darker areas of a scene to become noisy. Also, try lowering the master ped in your scene file setting. I generally shoot with it from -10 to -40.
 
The orginals were shot and posted by Dvxuser Kurtmo, as a response to the candlelight challenge thread do a search :)
 
craigsbrian, can you post video of your noisy footage?

is the footage indoors? if so, tell us which lights you are using and how many.

the HMC will show alot of noise (like any digital camera) unless you feed it ALOT of light. it's all about light. using simple household lights will not suffice... you need to pump it with a 500w or two china balls to get a truly noise-free image. if you shoot outside during the day it should also show no noise.
 
Oliax said:
craigsbrian, can you post video of your noisy footage?

is the footage indoors? if so, tell us which lights you are using and how many.

the HMC will show alot of noise (like any digital camera) unless you feed it ALOT of light. it's all about light. using simple household lights will not suffice... you need to pump it with a 500w or two china balls to get a truly noise-free image. if you shoot outside during the day it should also show no noise.
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The shots during the day seem clean for the most part but even sometimes in a daylight shot it seems grainy - not film-grainy in the traditional sense but more like invisible ants crawling all over the image, epecially near an object's edges

The most frustrating noise though, is that which takes place in low-light situations - for example a rock band in a club where the lights are random changing coloured spotlights, city at night or any other low light situation that you have to capture on the fly (drunken poker session with the boys in my livingroom) - however... I do believe that most of these situations were brighter than a couple of candles - I'm just getting large graininess (spelling?) - I know that grain increases as light decreases - but my main point is this:

I am seeing alot of very low light stuff with this camera online (vimeo) that looks fantastic i.e. candlelight, midnight street lights, wedding footage and the footage seems alot cleaner than what I have managed to achieve.

Believe it or not, I have yet to transcode any footage yet - have just been watching the footage on my 50" Panasonic Viera plasma and my 30" Dell Monitor - My Final Cut Studio 2 arrives this week so looking forward to that. Anyhoo...

Do I simply attach a few .mts files to a post and you guys will transcode it and have a look at it?

Incidentally, I live in New Zealand and the name of the camera here is the AG-HMC152EN

thanks again

Craig
 
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if youre using the zebra it might be on 80% like another guy who previously made that mistake. switch it to 100%
 
dcloud said:
if youre using the zebra it might be on 80% like another guy who previously made that mistake. switch it to 100%
Click to expand...

Zebra isn't really relevant for me in low light as the heart of each shot rarely activates 80% however I have read that post and have my Zebra set to 105%

thanks
 
I just had the opportunity to do some low lights tests with the A1 and the HMC-150.

I will tell you this.. the A1 has more grain then the HMC-150.. and the A1 has been quite the work horse for several years now.

In our tests we used scene file 4.
 
Strobe Media said:
so far the only shots i've got at night i was more then satisfied with

http://blip.tv/file/get/StrobeMedia-hmcNightFootage224.mov
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Sweet!!

As it turns out I might just be a picky bastard because this doesn't look that good to me - loads of noise - similar to my camera.

Saved your clip as a quicktime file and watched it full-screen on an iMac LCD 1440 x 900

Still though... that vimeo candlelight clip and some other streetlight night shots I've viewed look way cleaner than this...

thanks for the post - although it was not that impressive, at least it made me think I might not have to go through all the bullshi* of returning my camera and rather, making do with the level of video camera that I've got.

Anyone else have any opinions on this footage?

thanks again

Craig
 
I'd say that we'd need to know what you are comparing this camera too.. what you've used before. Also, judging footage on an Imac screen is really a very poor way of validating an image.. just like it is for me to judge video footage on my Dell Monitor. These are computer monitors that show noise way more than you would get off a true broadcast monitor or even an HD monitor. This has been discussed at nauseum on this site. your monitoring system is a key ingredient in how things look...

Frankly, this cam is WAY better in noise than the Original HVX and that cam kicked booty and I did broadcast stuff for years as well as others. I'd say that you need to re-evaluate your viewing strategy and not come off as if you are obove this cam, and then say you are watching it on an Imac screen. That's just a poor subsitute for making critical judgements IMHO.
 
Justyn said:
I'd say that we'd need to know what you are comparing this camera too.. what you've used before. Also, judging footage on an Imac screen is really a very poor way of validating an image.. just like it is for me to judge video footage on my Dell Monitor. These are computer monitors that show noise way more than you would get off a true broadcast monitor or even an HD monitor. This has been discussed at nauseum on this site. your monitoring system is a key ingredient in how things look...

Frankly, this cam is WAY better in noise than the Original HVX and that cam kicked booty and I did broadcast stuff for years as well as others. I'd say that you need to re-evaluate your viewing strategy and not come off as if you are obove this cam, and then say you are watching it on an Imac screen. That's just a poor subsitute for making critical judgements IMHO.
Click to expand...

Your average person doesn't watch TV or his DVDs on a "true broadcast monitor or an HD monitor" - he watches them on an iMac or on a average DVD player on an average HD set

You are truly missing the point - which is relatively simple - as I stated from the very beginning, I have been watching other people's low light footage on the SAME viewing devices that I have been watching MY footage on - in other words, the viewing device cannot be a variable in this discussion if all clips are viewed on the same monitor - logically, the variable must be the camera itself and/or the camera's settings and/or the amount of light we are giving the camera (although as I have already stated, my low light is similar to the low light situations that I have viewed online)

The gist of this post was to simply find out if the "excessive noise, faulty camera, return camera, get shiny new less noise camera" had any validity, any commonality, any place at all as a simple explanation for my plight - in other words, if anyone out there had solved their noise problem by simply replacing their HMC.

Now, if noone responds that they have purchased this camera, returned it because of excessive noise and received a replacement camera that has much less noise, than I know that this particular variable can be eliminated and thus I can proceed to solve the problem by delving deeper into the variables that remain as stated above.

In every way do I consider myself an amateur but I do like to think that before I started this post, I read the majority of posts on the problem that I am experiencing and could not find an adequate solution and so began my own thread.

Anyhoo...

Thank you for your post - as you say, it's probably just me but I just wanted to make sure.

thanks again

Craig
 
I had some troubles to with mine but these helped out alot
Reset your camera ( manual )
and
Turn down the sharpness of your monitor if your viewing it through hdmi.

Post a screengrab and your scenefilesettings so fellowusers can tell you if they think its noisy are not.
 
I got your point, but your monitor and to a good extent the online compreession can mask or exagerate the noise so you can't judge by online clips. It also takes a while to get the cam tweeked to how u like it, via custom scene files and you should do camera tests with a calibrated monitor.


When u ask questions on a site where pros share ideas u will get pro workflow and expectations fitting with these expectations... And most people couldn't tell or care about the tech of anything.... They are concerned about content
 
http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/150HD.mov





http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/danceb.mov
here's a couple of clips that I shot the first week or so that I had the HMC. The first one is a high res file and the second is just a slow-motion test.


There's one sure fire way to tell if your cam is defective as a few people on this forum have gotten bad cams.. and that's to meet up with someone in your area that has the cam and compare footage side by side. This might be a good way to put your mind at ease and or get it back to Panny. If you do send it in, then you will be without one for a couple of weeks.. but I can tell you that the 150 is better than most in terms of noise and low-light and who knows what will come out at NAB but till then, I'm happy with this and it'll be making me cash. It was paid off with work after less than one week of ownership.


cheers


J
 
Justyn said:
http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/150HD.mov





http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/danceb.mov
here's a couple of clips that I shot the first week or so that I had the HMC. The first one is a high res file and the second is just a slow-motion test.


There's one sure fire way to tell if your cam is defective as a few people on this forum have gotten bad cams.. and that's to meet up with someone in your area that has the cam and compare footage side by side. This might be a good way to put your mind at ease and or get it back to Panny. If you do send it in, then you will be without one for a couple of weeks.. but I can tell you that the 150 is better than most in terms of noise and low-light and who knows what will come out at NAB but till then, I'm happy with this and it'll be making me cash. It was paid off with work after less than one week of ownership.


cheers


J
Click to expand...

thanks for the links Justyn - beautiful work!! - that is beautiful slo-mo work!! - incidentally the AG-HMC152EN only does 25P or 50P - no 30P - is this interesting? - if so, why? - what would you do with this camera's South Pacific limitations? - Justyn, what would you suggest as the best method for creating Slo-Mo that looks like your Slo-Mo in FCS2?

unless someone speaks up soon, i think i can safely assume that this faulty HMC image noise i've been reading about and experiencing directly lies solely within the camera's settings and capabilities rather than any innate maufacturing issue.

i have to say, even within the last couple of days, my images have been improving as Justyn (among others) have challenged me to examine my experience level with this particular camera and among the filmmaking community.

one thing i must disagree with as far as general consensus is concerned, is this supposed 720 sweet spot - (barry green included - even if, he seems to be a bit of a god around here...) - IMHO 1080 blows the crap out of 720 - the difference, in fact, seems to me, to be significant, overwhelming and perhaps, a bit of a no-brainer... maybye it's the fast movement thing that supposedly tips it to 720 but, hey, i haven't seen it...

however, i do concur completely that this camera improves rapidly and exponentially with the more light you give it

possibly a dumb question:

if you want a particular scene to be dark and moody, with digtital video, should one shoot it as dark and moody initially or shoot it gathering as much light as possible and make it dark & moody in post?

thanks again

craig
 
-50p will get you the same effect as 60p its for pal

-use the ndfilter and add some levels or curves in post for a moothy scene .

I love 1080p but for now its 720p until I get a faster pc !

The G man is God !
 
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