I'm directing documentary for a producer, but he keeps changing everything.

[combatentropy]

I see, you didn't want to burn any bridges, because you might want his help again.

It's hard. It's hard to tell people No, especially if you felt like you were friends.

But you will be healthier and happier if you set boundaries. It sounds cold. But think of it this way:
By giving in, you are encouraging them to turn into bad humans.
By saying No, you are encouraging them to be better humans.

It is more important, even for his own happiness, that he become a better human, than that he complete his dream projects. Success is sometimes the worst thing that can happen to someone, in fact. I'm sure we can all think of stories, at least that we have heard secondhand. I'm not saying you will have control over his destiny. I'm just saying that, by encouraging responsibility and fairness, you are in a sense helping him --- probably more than by giving in.

 

[ahalpert]

Plus, he will respect you more if you demonstrate self-respect. Bowing out is win-win for you! If you dont want to burn your bridges, the key is to do it tactfully

 

[JimS2]

Oh okay. In my experience it's been the opposite so far, and that if I put my foot down, the other person will respond along the lines "okay, well screw you then". But that's just been my experience so far, if you want more receprocity from others in the future.

 

[combatentropy]

That sounds really odd. Either you meet a lot people of exceptionally low character, or there is something about the way you're saying stuff.

This is where you really need a two or three healthy people in your life, the kind of people who are calm, wise, stable, pay their bills, etc --- perhaps a family member, perhaps not, but someone who feels like an aunt, uncle, big brother, etc. Meet with them once a week or so, and talk about your week's problems.

An internet text forum is extremely low bandwidth, even though it is high-tech, compared to a face-to-face conversation, or even a phone call. Text messaging is better suited for simple questions with cut-and-dried answers, not when you are in sticky social situations or contemplating your life's direction, etc.

 

[paulears]

Ryan's had this problem many times before which he's mentioned on other forums. First time here I think. Saskatoon seem to have a small group of budding film makers and these people, based on his previous tales, have a habit of jumping in, then jumping out again when the going gets a teeny bit tough. Producers are NOT real producers, they're people keen to get involved, like a kind of club. Ryan made a movie before where suddenly the cast became unavailable, so the script got rewritten quite terribly. Then the locations became unavailable, in the end it was exactly the same. Collections of shot material that suddenly got repurposed. People had production roles and they suddenly changed too. Nobody was really doing the job role they started.

We've told Ryan that with amateurs these are perfectly normal problems, but it just looks like they've all done it again. Ryan's been sound man, camera man, producer, director lighting cameraman, editor, runner, plus other jobs. Sometimes by design, sometimes by bad luck when people just vanish. He has resilience and just steams intone next project. Practically everything normal productions would do, don't get done in Saskatoon. If you need to hire a lens, or a location you find an excuse to solve it by re-writing the script to avoid the need. You want a certain look to a space, so instead of painting it, decorating it as usual, you try to change the colour of the paint in post. You try to change poor recorded sound afterwards, you resist learning new processes or hiring specialists by fudging the production so it doesn't need doing. You even in one project, ignore all conventions to record a certain activity because the 'client' doesn't want to do it the usual/normal/sensible way and your shot footage is unusable. It needed techniques to make it work that crossed traditional shoot rules, but that meant the end produc was a mess. These things just repeat in a cycle. Next topic will address this producer issue by suggesting a codirector partnership which will fall down because one won't do what the other says. We've done all this before two years ago on another forum. I could link the other forums topics here but there's little point. I've tried to help Ruan as have numerous other people but he's moved here now and brought all his old stories with him, so it's like watching reruns on TV!

 

[Josh Bass]

Well thats how the biz works, man. Once you hit 100 threads you get that sweet syndication deal.

 

[JimS2]

Ryan's had this problem many times before which he's mentioned on other forums. First time here I think. Saskatoon seem to have a small group of budding film makers and these people, based on his previous tales, have a habit of jumping in, then jumping out again when the going gets a teeny bit tough. Producers are NOT real producers, they're people keen to get involved, like a kind of club. Ryan made a movie before where suddenly the cast became unavailable, so the script got rewritten quite terribly. Then the locations became unavailable, in the end it was exactly the same. Collections of shot material that suddenly got repurposed. People had production roles and they suddenly changed too. Nobody was really doing the job role they started.

We've told Ryan that with amateurs these are perfectly normal problems, but it just looks like they've all done it again. Ryan's been sound man, camera man, producer, director lighting cameraman, editor, runner, plus other jobs. Sometimes by design, sometimes by bad luck when people just vanish. He has resilience and just steams intone next project. Practically everything normal productions would do, don't get done in Saskatoon. If you need to hire a lens, or a location you find an excuse to solve it by re-writing the script to avoid the need. You want a certain look to a space, so instead of painting it, decorating it as usual, you try to change the colour of the paint in post. You try to change poor recorded sound afterwards, you resist learning new processes or hiring specialists by fudging the production so it doesn't need doing. You even in one project, ignore all conventions to record a certain activity because the 'client' doesn't want to do it the usual/normal/sensible way and your shot footage is unusable. It needed techniques to make it work that crossed traditional shoot rules, but that meant the end produc was a mess. These things just repeat in a cycle. Next topic will address this producer issue by suggesting a codirector partnership which will fall down because one won't do what the other says. We've done all this before two years ago on another forum. I could link the other forums topics here but there's little point. I've tried to help Ruan as have numerous other people but he's moved here now and brought all his old stories with him, so it's like watching reruns on TV!

Oh I didn't mean to bring old stories with me. It was just a new project with a different person now, and I just wanted other filmmakers opinions on how to handle it.

Do you think from now on, I should try to use more money to hire professionals for my own projects so people do not become available, and less changes have to be made therefore?

I wouldn't say everyone I worked with has been a negative experience though. So far there have been a few filmmakers I worked under where the experience was very positive and everything went well for their films.

I could hire more professionals, it's just others tell me to do no budget projects at this point, so should I keep doing that therefore, or will that cause the same problems, of course... Or are you saying it is something that I am doing that has caused this person to be unavailable in this current project?

 

[briandrys1]

As has been said before, om another forum, you can only hire professionals if you've got the budget to pay them.

If you're making a documentary or a corporate, you need to find clients who are willing to fund such a production. Usually that's where the producer gets involved in the business end of things. It's often the case that the director has to do both jobs because the budget isn't there to pay for two people.

Dealing with unreliable people is par for the course with no budget productions. It's a matter of minimizing the number of such people that you work with, although, as the crew and cast size increases the reliability does seem to increase because they don't want to lose face.

It's entering into fantasy unless you're prepared to give your short films the same budget as your feature film, if you wish to pay professionals. The no budget projects should be regarded as practice pieces, but you should be demanding on the people involved, so that the quality of your films improves. Often, this involves using people who are equally demanding on themselves and who work together as a group/team, but you always need a level of flexibly. Don't rewrite the script if an actor isn't sudden;y available, get your second or third choice to play the part. You're not locked in until they appear on camera.

In the case of the original question, you agreed to do a one off documentary, a mini series is something that should only be considered if the producer has got funding for such a thing. The one off documentary could be considered as a speculative pilot, but then it's up to the producer to get a commission for the mini series, they'll need that in order to make any money from a documentary series. If the host has fallen through, film the new one if that's what required to complete the film, then commit no further until the producer gets a commission.

I suspect it's just the type of thing that producers float, but you should be aware enough to know that it shouldn't be taken too seriously, a case of believing it when it happens. Producers are like politicians. you shouldn't believe everything they say.

 

[combatentropy]

Do you think from now on, I should try to use more money to hire professionals

This is the same question you asked last month, and it went on for 127 posts: How do other filmmakers develop so much confidence in themselves?

 

[JimS2]

Yes, I will take the advice given to me before. As for not rewriting and just relying on other actors later, I could do that, but then I would have to delay shoots until those other actors are available, and I hate delaying on everyone else. But I can do that if that's best.

As for the current project, I could finish this latest episode and post it on here for feedback as well, if the producer can get the people stick around to finish it. Then I can tell him that I won't do anymore until we have a comission if that's best.

 

[paulears]

Probably that is best Ryan - Develop your courage. It took me till I got to 50 to learn how to say no properly. I was always worried I'd burn bridges, but once I started saying no, these thick skinned people still carried on asking and sometimes I said yes. At some point you'll stop looking upon freebies as opportunities for exposure. You cannot buy food with exposure.

 

[JimS2]

Oh okay. I have had some paying gigs so far and those went a lot better. Probably because the person paying had to keep the money tight, and knew they couldn't change anything unless they wanted to spend more.

 

[Alex H.]

... I could do that, but then I would have to delay shoots until those other actors are available, and I hate delaying on everyone else.

That’s called being a producer. Are you a producer, or a director?

You’ve been given this advice many, many times, and you still have yet to do anything with it. But you also still have yet to demonstrate that you a) understand what being a director actually is and b) have the ability to create anything on little or no budget that would motivate anyone to invest in your larger projects. You cannot throw money at the problem - especially not other people’s money - and solve these two issues.

The two videos you have posted on this forum don’t help your case. One isn’t a short film... it’s a glorified TED talk (closer to TV than film). The other is a skit that everybody pitched in on, and apparently everybody “directed”.

As for the current project, I could finish this latest episode and post it on here for feedback as well, if the producer can get the people stick around to finish it. Then I can tell him that I won't do anymore until we have a comission if that's best.

What I see happening here is the same thing that happens in your countless, endless threads. You are unable to make your own decision. I’d say “without consulting the entire Internet”, but the fact is that even after you’ve run these threads into the ground you still don’t/can’t make your own decision. This “producer” you’re working for has abused his in-kind assistance. Period. It can be hard to risk burning bridges, but sometimes you at least need to be able to rope them off. You have to be able to make your own decision, and to handle that situation yourself.

Side note: directing a documentary is a different world from directing a narrative feature film.

You came back to this forum after having been banned, and you tried to sneak in under a fake name. We’ve given you plenty of opportunity to demonstrate that you’ve learned something. What say you?

 

[JAMedia]

Oh okay. I have had some paying gigs so far and those went a lot better. Probably because the person paying had to keep the money tight, and knew they couldn't change anything unless they wanted to spend more.

You have hit the nail on the head. IF it is all "free" people are less careful. It is probably time that you stated to organise your film community in Saskatoon on a more formal basis. Do it so that it is members only and everything costs. Time or money. You will probably find that is works better people will have to organise and be more disciplined. If you mess about and waste a day then you won the whole crew (individually ) a day or cash. Also everyone knows where they stand. Because of this you might find that more films get made because people have to be more prepared and better organised.

 

[JimS2]

Oh okay, well I could post a couple of other projects I directed from before, I just didn't think they were worth posting until I improved better.

And yes, I know directing a documentary is a different beast, it's just that this person helped me out on a project of mine, so I wanted to pay them back on theirs when he asked me to.

 

[ahalpert]

Ryan's had this problem many times before which he's mentioned on other forums. First time here I think. Saskatoon seem to have a small group of budding film makers and these people, based on his previous tales, have a habit of jumping in, then jumping out again when the going gets a teeny bit tough. Producers are NOT real producers, they're people keen to get involved, like a kind of club. Ryan made a movie before where suddenly the cast became unavailable, so the script got rewritten quite terribly. Then the locations became unavailable, in the end it was exactly the same. Collections of shot material that suddenly got repurposed. People had production roles and they suddenly changed too. Nobody was really doing the job role they started.

We've told Ryan that with amateurs these are perfectly normal problems, but it just looks like they've all done it again. Ryan's been sound man, camera man, producer, director lighting cameraman, editor, runner, plus other jobs. Sometimes by design, sometimes by bad luck when people just vanish. He has resilience and just steams intone next project. Practically everything normal productions would do, don't get done in Saskatoon. If you need to hire a lens, or a location you find an excuse to solve it by re-writing the script to avoid the need. You want a certain look to a space, so instead of painting it, decorating it as usual, you try to change the colour of the paint in post. You try to change poor recorded sound afterwards, you resist learning new processes or hiring specialists by fudging the production so it doesn't need doing. You even in one project, ignore all conventions to record a certain activity because the 'client' doesn't want to do it the usual/normal/sensible way and your shot footage is unusable. It needed techniques to make it work that crossed traditional shoot rules, but that meant the end produc was a mess. These things just repeat in a cycle. Next topic will address this producer issue by suggesting a codirector partnership which will fall down because one won't do what the other says. We've done all this before two years ago on another forum. I could link the other forums topics here but there's little point. I've tried to help Ruan as have numerous other people but he's moved here now and brought all his old stories with him, so it's like watching reruns on TV!

Paulears' description actually makes a funny treatment for a comedy film or series about an ill-fated filmmaking club. "Saskatoon" is a funny name or something with it. "The Saskatoon Club" "The Saskatoon Curse" "High Noon in Saskatoon" "The Battle of Saskatoon" "Saskatoon Dreams"

 

[briandrys1]

Yes, I will take the advice given to me before. As for not rewriting and just relying on other actors later, I could do that, but then I would have to delay shoots until those other actors are available, and I hate delaying on everyone else. But I can do that if that's best.

You hit the phones, which is what professionals do, if the shoot has a set date, they don't do a rewrite on a short film. If it's only a small part, a member of the crew might be a suitable replacement on the day irself. You need to be persuasive when doing this, getting replacements at short notice goes with the job.

 

[JimS2]

Oh okay, well I would have more people come to the auditions then in order, to have enough people to call where I could just hit the phones and someone will say yes. So I can try to get more auditions packed in and try different places. I can't really use a member of the crew if I want that person to do any shooting or sound recording of course, but I can see, what I can come up with for next time.

As for the current project, I think after this one I am going to say no to any unscripted documentary type projects after this that anyone asks me for. They are just unpredictable, unless that is stubborn of me to turn down any unscripted projects from now on?

But as for getting other people more on board with my projects, perhaps in order to not get people to leave, it's just a matter of schmoozing and I need to be a better schmoozer, and when someone says no, maybe I shouldn't leave it at that, just still keep trying to schooze that person?

 

[briandrys1]

Directing documentaries is going over old ground, it was discussed in a long thread on another forum.

 

[Paul F]

Directing documentaries is going over old ground, it was discussed in a long thread on another forum.

It doesn't matter how many times a topic has been gone over.

Many harp on JimS2 about his posts, but then keep responding. If people are tired of his posts, why do members keep responding? If it bothers people, they should just ignore the thread.

It takes two to tango.