Ikonoskop back in business under new management

[Shoots56]

Prores or not a compressed video codec is still a compressed video codec. Raw is not going to displace video. It is going to be the go to acquisition format for those that would otherwise shoot film. Prores can't touch it. Log compressed video can't touch it. There is nothing like having total access to the full linear DR of the sensor with no restrictions. Even lossy compressed raw formats like Red and Sony aren't of the same quality as full uncompressed or mathematically lossless compressed DNG. It is the emerging format for visual artists who value highly refined imagery above all. Personally I'm over shooting video for creative projects. These cameras aren't about mass market anything. They are about a valid alternative for markets that aren't being served.

I guess Panasonic and Sony should dump their expensive but bullet proof reliable P2 and SXS media too? Take a read through the forums for BMC cameras and you will see thread after thread about the unreliability of off the shelf media.

We are talking about the marketplace. Ikon can't make a business out of this camera due to what I said and others who pointed out how huge the price is, along with the odd media. If someone wants to make a few cameras for the .01% or less who have to have a small, raw camera, then that's great but no one can act like it's a good idea on any practical level. The "art by any means" attitude only exists because some other guy is losing his shirt. This reminds me of the endless line of speciality start-ups who set out to build ultra fast cars that are 1% faster than whatever the popular exotic guys are offering. I'd rather have a Porsche that I can drive on trips as well as outperform most anyone else I come across than pay out for a Lambo-like copy that uses $2000/each tires and needs a new clutch every 10,000 miles. That extra few % really, really costs. I'm all for that too, but only in the rental world. I can rent Arri but buy an F3. How many people are going to rent an A-cam? Yeah, it is one specialized little thing (and I'd have one if I won the lottery, along with a monochrome epic)

 

[Grug]

Prores or not a compressed video codec is still a compressed video codec. Raw is not going to displace video. It is going to be the go to acquisition format for those that would otherwise shoot film. Prores can't touch it. Log compressed video can't touch it. There is nothing like having total access to the full linear DR of the sensor with no restrictions. Even lossy compressed raw formats like Red and Sony aren't of the same quality as full uncompressed or mathematically lossless compressed DNG. It is the emerging format for visual artists who value highly refined imagery above all. Personally I'm over shooting video for creative projects. These cameras aren't about mass market anything. They are about a valid alternative for markets that aren't being served.

I guess Panasonic and Sony should dump their expensive but bullet proof reliable P2 and SXS media too? Take a read through the forums for BMC cameras and you will see thread after thread about the unreliability of off the shelf media.

I can't say I agree. The number of feature films shot primarily in ProRes on the Alexa (generally due to budget constraints) would suggest that plenty of very talented, very discerning people can make do just fine without film and without raw capture. Of course 'better' is always better (you won't hear anyone dispute that) - but it isn't always practicable. And if more manageable compressed file formats allow the necessary budget to be allocated to more important elements, such as actors and art direction, then those compressed formats are doing more to serve the story than the technically superior image quality of higher-end recording mediums.

With the shrinking budgets we're seeing these days it's important to have options.

Having something like ProRes recording available on the A-CAM means a broader range of productions can put that lovely, organic looking image to use. It doesn't water down the power of its uncompressed raw recording, it simply offers a more practical option for many situations - if that means the camera can be used more, then it means it can pay itself off quicker, which makes ownership and the camera's existence a lot easier to justify. Given that so many options out there these days recognise and offer the benefits of 10-bit internal recording formats (even if they also offer raw recording) I think it would be folly for Ikonoskop to not recognise that demand in the market and look to improve their camera offering by it.

 

[resonance_image]

Does anyone know who the new owners are? Have they removed the old administration?

The new owners are very knowledgeable A-Cam owners themselves along with a silent investor. The holding company now is based in Belgium. I already see a very well organized response to owner concerns and I think that the camera will continue to be refined while staying true to the original vision.

 

[resonance_image]

I believe the price of the camera will continue to come down, I think that the cost originally had to cover the years of development. Adding things like Pro Res however would increase the price since I believe that you have to pay Apple a licensing fee, this process can also delay production for long periods like it did with Black Magic cameras. An easy solution is to use the camera with any one of the external recorders available like people do with the C100 and record to a compressed codec.

Every camera is not going to do everything. The Sony F55 comes close to having it all on paper but even that image looks videoish to me, the BMCC is great but I couldn't imaging shooting with a big box that off a tripod seems horrible to use unless rigged up with the old style DSLR scaffolding.

 

[Fluoro]

the BMCC is great but I couldn't imaging shooting with a big box that off a tripod seems horrible to use unless rigged up with the old style DSLR scaffolding.

The Blackmagic Pocket cam isn't too big and can be made to be usable in a very small form factor.

 

[Razz16mm]

I can't say I agree. The number of feature films shot primarily in ProRes on the Alexa (generally due to budget constraints) would suggest that plenty of very talented, very discerning people can make do just fine without film and without raw capture. Of course 'better' is always better (you won't hear anyone dispute that) - but it isn't always practicable. And if more manageable compressed file formats allow the necessary budget to be allocated to more important elements, such as actors and art direction, then those compressed formats are doing more to serve the story than the technically superior image quality of higher-end recording mediums.

With the shrinking budgets we're seeing these days it's important to have options.

Having something like ProRes recording available on the A-CAM means a broader range of productions can put that lovely, organic looking image to use. It doesn't water down the power of its uncompressed raw recording, it simply offers a more practical option for many situations - if that means the camera can be used more, then it means it can pay itself off quicker, which makes ownership and the camera's existence a lot easier to justify. Given that so many options out there these days recognise and offer the benefits of 10-bit internal recording formats (even if they also offer raw recording) I think it would be folly for Ikonoskop to not recognise that demand in the market and look to improve their camera offering by it.

Except that it would require a redesign of the camera's electronics and serious added processing power to do both tasks well probably requiring a change in the camera's physical design to handle it. The internal processing power available in these raw cameras can either be optimized to deliver pristine raw data, or compromised to do both tasks, neither as well. It would be better to find ways to lower production cost and get the price down by a couple of thousand than redesign the camera. The P+S Technic IMS mount system alone adds more than $1k to the cost.

As it stands you can use an external recorder with the A-cam for video, increase the setup time, cost and complexity of shooting in the field that video requires, and take the hit in IQ if you must. But less and less do I see any possible advantage in that path. Computer power, software support for cinema dng, and storage costs are changing so fast that raw workflow isn't going to be much of an issue anyway.

 

[petermullett]

The new owners are very knowledgeable A-Cam owners themselves along with a silent investor. The holding company now is based in Belgium. I already see a very well organized response to owner concerns and I think that the camera will continue to be refined while staying true to the original vision.

+1

 

[Dazzlepump]

The Ikonoskop's main weakness, in my personally opinion is the price point. With the way things are going today, this camera needs to be in the $2,000 dollar range, possible even the $1,000 range. Black Magic has a 16mm raw 1080p shooting camera for $1,000 and Ikonoskop offers a more organic version with less features for $10,000. There is little surprise that it isn't selling.

A solution, would be (as much as I hate to say it) outsourcing to reduce the cost. Include a Prores 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Log recording option, as well as changing its media format to something like SSDs or CF cards.

Its a lot to ask, but I feel that those are the necessary changes required not only to keep the company afloat, but the get large numbers of these cameras selling.

 

[Razz16mm]

The Ikonoskop's main weakness, in my personally opinion is the price point. With the way things are going today, this camera needs to be in the $2,000 dollar range, possible even the $1,000 range. Black Magic has a 16mm raw 1080p shooting camera for $1,000 and Ikonoskop offers a more organic version with less features for $10,000. There is little surprise that it isn't selling.

A solution, would be (as much as I hate to say it) outsourcing to reduce the cost. Include a Prores 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 Log recording option, as well as changing its media format to something like SSDs or CF cards.

Its a lot to ask, but I feel that those are the necessary changes required not only to keep the company afloat, but the get large numbers of these cameras selling.

The IMS lens mount system on the Ikonoskop cost more than $1000. The Kodak CCD sensor wholesale cost more than the entire manufacturing cost of any mass retail camera under $1k. Considering price alone without looking deeper at what you get for what you pay is a futile exercise. Nobody complains about dropped frames or lost footage with the Acam's dedicated media.

 

[vanvideo]

Speaking of Ikonoskop, I tried loading the website and it doesn't work.

ETA - I have Ikonoskop on my Facebook, and they say there will be no more a-cam dii cameras. It's not economically feasible to produce them.
Very sad. They will have a new website to support current owners, and maybe make a new camera in the future.

But it seems the a-cam is dead. :embarasse

 

[sportique]

Nobody complains about dropped frames or lost footage with the Acam's dedicated media.

that's not really true, ikonoskop owners were having to modify the back cover on the camera to fix a design fault that was resulting in the loss and corruption of data.

I love the D2 but there were plenty of well documented teething problems with it, some were resolved; some not so much

 

[Gillvane]

Speaking of Ikonoskop, I tried loading the website and it doesn't work.

ETA - I have Ikonoskop on my Facebook, and they say there will be no more a-cam dii cameras. It's not economically feasible to produce them.
Very sad. They will have a new website to support current owners, and maybe make a new camera in the future.

But it seems the a-cam is dead. :embarasse

Not a big surprise. It wasn't competition for the latest releases from Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Black Magic, at the same price points, and probably will look like even less competition for the price as we see the new 2014 releases.

 

[Razz16mm]

The Blackmagic Pocket cam isn't too big and can be made to be usable in a very small form factor.

The BMC cameras have really nice DR and decent color, but suffer from the same low end CMOS artifacts as other cheap cameras, shooting raw or prores. The worst of these IMO is aliasing and moire which can be cured with a properly matched OLPF, but that adds several hundred dollars to the cost of a camera. Good ones aren't cheap.

A CCD camera costs on average 4 times as much to develop and manufacture as a CMOS camera not including the cost of sensor development. Which is why they have disappeared from low end cameras. If you want high end features like the IMS mount it is going to cost. OLPF adds cost.

So yes it is sad that a camera like the Ikonoskop that actually does shoot a really nice organic color rich film like image free of the usual video artifacts can't even find a minimal market because of the focus on low price and an excess of buzzword features that have little to do with actually producing a high quality artifact free digital image.

 

[Tzedekh]

So yes it is sad that a camera like the Ikonoskop that actually does shoot a really nice organic color rich film like image free of the usual video artifacts can't even find a minimal market because of the focus on low price and an excess of buzzword features that have little to do with actually producing a high quality artifact free digital image.

The Digital Bolex has essentially the same CCD but costs thousands less. I'm not saying it's necessarily as good as the Ikonoskop, but it does show that a filmic CCD-based digital-cinema camera is possible for significantly less money than the price of the dII.

 

[Razz16mm]

The Digital Bolex has essentially the same CCD but costs thousands less. I'm not saying it's necessarily as good as the Ikonoskop, but it does show that a filmic CCD-based digital-cinema camera is possible for significantly less money than the price of the dII.

If Ikonoskop were building a new camera from the ground up today, the price of high performance electronic components like FPGA's has dropped considerably along with a significant improvement in performance. So has the price of high speed flash ram.

So yeah the Bolex is a radically different internal and external design aimed at hitting a cost target while compromising features instead of important elements of image and audio quality.

They still have some calibration tweaking to do to get to where the Ikonoskop ended up though.

 

[Futchibon]

The BMC cameras have really nice DR and decent color, but suffer from the same low end CMOS artifacts as other cheap cameras, shooting raw or prores. The worst of these IMO is aliasing and moire which can be cured with a properly matched OLPF, but that adds several hundred dollars to the cost of a camera. Good ones aren't cheap.

A CCD camera costs on average 4 times as much to develop and manufacture as a CMOS camera not including the cost of sensor development. Which is why they have disappeared from low end cameras. If you want high end features like the IMS mount it is going to cost. OLPF adds cost.

So yes it is sad that a camera like the Ikonoskop that actually does shoot a really nice organic color rich film like image free of the usual video artifacts can't even find a minimal market because of the focus on low price and an excess of buzzword features that have little to do with actually producing a high quality artifact free digital image.

Could you please post an example of the Digital Bolex footage because all the footage from it thus far is clearly inferior to the Black magic cameras. The Digital Bolex is overpriced and underperforms.

As for CMOS, Alexa and Red are CMOS, nothing wrong there...

 

[harddrive]

The BMC cameras have really nice DR and decent color, but suffer from the same low end CMOS artifacts as other cheap cameras, shooting raw or prores.

The only real practical difference that most people will notice between CCD and CMOS is that CMOS tends to come with some degree of rolling shutter. How severe depends on the camera - from appalling on some mobile phone video to "rarely a problem" on such as Red. And yes, Red and Alexa are CMOS, as are the F5/55.

And as the F55 proves, CMOS does not necessarily mean rolling shutter at all.

The worst of these IMO is aliasing and moire which can be cured with a properly matched OLPF, but .......

Aliasing and moire have absolutely nothing to do with whether the chip is based on CCD or CMOS technology. They are solely functions of how the physical layout of the photosites relates to fine detail in the image - the technology of how the photosite converts light to electric charge (CCD or CMOS) is irrelevant.

Yes, an OLPF will cut out the too fine detail, and hence the aliasing, but the cut off is not abrupt. Consequently, designers have to make a trade off between aliasing and excessive softening in choosing the cut off of the OLPF. Hence, a good OLPF is only part of the answer. The chip needs to be designed with oversampling as well - so that the the OLPF can do it's work on frequencies that are out of band. Hence the reason why such as the Alexa has far more than 1920x1080 photosites for a 1080p output.

Start with a 1920x1080 chip and no matter how good the OLPF, there must inevitably be a compromise between aliasing and softening. CMOS/CCD considerations are irrelevant in this respect.

 

[vanvideo]

Well, interesting conversations all around, but the bottom line is, Ikonoskop is no longer manufacturing cameras.

They will still offer tech support for current owners, when and if they have a new website up. I don't know how long they can keep that up without a good income stream. As far as parts, we can assume there will be no more spares produced.
They might design a new camera, if they feel there is a market for one. But as for now, I wouldn't bet on it.

I wonder what the used market will be for these cameras, especially with a proprietary media card that is no longer produced. Or any spare parts. Or, possibly, no tech support.

Still, it was one heck of a beautiful camera design, making great images. I wish it would have been cheaper, for the price it was simply too narrowly focused for me to justify buying one.

 

[combatentropy]

Aliasing and moire have absolutely nothing to do with whether the chip is based on CCD or CMOS

I don't think that's what he meant.

 

[snowblindfilm]

Yes, he did mean exactly that. Razz16mm keeps repeating (debunk long time ago) myth of CCD superiority.